Honor killing and the difference in cultures.

As a student and ardent believer in Rawlsian ideology let me say this about that.

According to Rawls society exists to make laws that balance the needs of the majority with that of the minority.

Rawls' idea, thought experiment, is this simplified.

Take 1 person from every race, creed, culture, and religion in the country that you live in. Sit them down at a table and "remove" all ignorances, preconceived notions, knowledge of station in life, etc.. Rawls called this the veil of ignorance.

They will then make the laws. Remove the veil. According to him then the laws will be balanced.

What we have in this country is an utter failure to recognize those laws that we have agreed to live by and order our lives by. Furthermore and Rawls makes allowances for this that individual societies, Little Havana for example, has "rules" that its people live by that seem to supersede the laws of the majority. This is wrong in all aspects. Rawls recognizes this and allows that certain "behaviors" are allowed but not a total usurpation of the laws of the majority.

Unless and until Little Havana wants to secede from the US they are bound by the laws that the majority decided would benefit and do the most good for the most people.

YMMV

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Originally Posted by gugi

Ok I'll comment then.
It seems to me fair as long as you allow this group of people to set disputes among themselves, to also allow that other group of people. I think most here believe in personal freedom and responsibility, so if two parties agree among themselves on some matter, I see no reason for the society to step in and change that..

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I have a problem with it when, in the course of settling disputes, their internal rules automatically designate 50% of the citizenry as second-class, borderline-subhuman property. I prefer a justice system that recognizes the equality of everyone, regardless of gender.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

I have a problem with it when, in the course of settling disputes, their internal rules automatically designate 50% of the citizenry as second-class, borderline-subhuman property. I prefer a justice system that recognizes the equality of everyone, regardless of gender.

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As long as that 50% is happy with the arrangement I have no problem with that. If they are unhappy they can turn to the official legal system which is more fair. In the cases when the official system is unfair it's up to that community to change it, if they want to do so. For example even in US human rights have not always extend equally to all humans. But the US society as a whole has recognized the need to change this and currently things are pretty fair.

First of all, it is a HORRIBLE thing!

Secondly, we need to try to understand their side of the picture (yes, it is possible to understand at the same time as you totally disagree)
Here in the west we live in a sin based culture. Our standards is based on acts being right or wrong. We also live in an extremely individualistic society where your actions leads to you being punished or not by the society.

Many other cultures are shame/honor based. Their main norm is honor, some times honor is even more important to them than right and wrong. (just try to ask a person in India about directions, if he doesn't know he don't want to make you feel shameful about making him look stupid, so to save you both from shame he will give you bogus directions)
The same cultures are also often based on family rather than individuals.
The combination of the two can lead to horrible things like honor killing. But the same cultures have some amazing things because of the same reasons, like it being a given thing to let old parents move in to your home and look after them because it would be a shame for your family to put them in to a nursery home and pay others to look after them when you live hundreds of miles away.
There are a few seriously screwed up things that are typical in the cultures where honor-killing is happening:
If a man sleeps with (or even rapes) a girl, she is the one bringing shame on to the family.
They believe in restoring honor by killing.

Honor killing is disgusting and horrible, but I think it is important to keep things clear. Honor killings are performed by individuals or small groups of individuals. NEVER even think about "killing them all" like someone here mentioned. That is way more barbaric than even honor killing.

And by the way what makes a white man killing his wife "domestic violence" when an arab killing his wife is "honor killing"

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Originally Posted by gugi

As long as that 50% is happy with the arrangement I have no problem with that. If they are unhappy they can turn to the official legal system which is more fair. In the cases when the official system is unfair it's up to that community to change it, if they want to do so. For example even in US human rights have not always extend equally to all humans. But the US society as a whole has recognized the need to change this and currently things are pretty fair.

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and what if that 50% isn't happy with it, but is bullied, brainwashed and beaten until it gives up and submits?

I'm just not ok with treating women worse than I'd treat a dog. I'll never be cool with it. Any culture that says it's ok to make your wife obey you (which I also have a fundamental problem with) by enforcing your whims with your fists... is a culture of cowardice and dishonorable wimps.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

and what if that 50% isn't happy with it, but is bullied, brainwashed and beaten until it gives up and submits?

I'm just not ok with treating women worse than I'd treat a dog. I'll never be cool with it. Any culture that says it's ok to make your wife obey you (which I also have a fundamental problem with) by enforcing your whims with your fists... is a culture of cowardice and dishonorable wimps.

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Agreed. There comes a point where you need to stop trying to "understand" and say "that's just wrong". We do this with each other all the time. The KKK and other groups are pretty much universally condemned. We don't try to "understand" them. The views of fundamentalist Muslims are not much different than these hate groups. Change a few words here and there....

I promised myself I would butt-out of this discussion :rolleyes:..., but I'm in the process of procrastinating over some things I need to get done.:D

Jordan

Yes, we sometimes need to say that is just wrong. It is really needed when it comes to honor-killing and unfair treatment of women.
But it is parts of the culture that needs to be taken away, not the cultures. Every culture has got good and bad sides, imagine how awesome it would be if they got rid of the bad sides.

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Originally Posted by flyboy

Yes, we sometimes need to say that is just wrong. It is really needed when it comes to honor-killing and unfair treatment of women.
But it is parts of the culture that needs to be taken away, not the cultures. Every culture has got good and bad sides, imagine how awesome it would be if they got rid of the bad sides.

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perhaps, but many theistic cultures proscribe changes to the culture, strengthening their traditions while at the same time preventing adaptation. if the culture is homogenous enough, and has a strong enough resistance to change (whether by legislative fiat or by supernatural threat) then the only way to remove the unacceptable elements is to completely wipe it out.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

perhaps, but many theistic cultures proscribe changes to the culture, strengthening their traditions while at the same time preventing adaptation. if the culture is homogenous enough, and has a strong enough resistance to change (whether by legislative fiat or by supernatural threat) then the only way to remove the unacceptable elements is to completely wipe it out.

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Explain what you mean by wipe it out? I hope you do not mean kill them all?

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Originally Posted by jockeys

if the culture is homogenous enough, and has a strong enough resistance to change (whether by legislative fiat or by supernatural threat) then the only way to remove the unacceptable elements is to completely wipe it out.

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I grew up in the segregated Southern USA in the 1950s and '60s. Who would have ever thought that this country and it's culture could have changed as much as it has ? For the better IMHO.

If you want to see an example of what the general perception of women and ethnic minorities was in say 1931 then get a copy of Cimarron. It was the first film to win an Oscar for best motion picture.