Thread: A question for the swedes.

In Norway, the leader of the largest opposition party (FRP) Siv Jensen, resently stated the fact that we have serious problems with muslim imigrants in Norway.She used Rosengården in Malmø as an example of how bad Oslo could get in the future.She was met by a storm of critisism by the collective press for this statement.The police chief in Malmø stated that they had no such problems, and basically that everything was under control.I was just wondering if this really is the truth.Is Rosengården really a place where everything is just fine? Any swedes care to comment?


Thanks Kristoffer

Haha,Rosengård made it to a worldwide straight razor forum!

Whats under control and what out of control?
The have been some mild riots and stonethrowing on police and ambulance/firemen, some fires, not like the riots in France, but riots according to swedish standards...

Why?I don't know..

Poverty? Bad integration? A feeling of alienation/no future? That they are some muslims in Rosengård?

I think the problem goes deeper then the fact that there is more muslims in Rosengård then other parts of Sweden...

Maybe someone with more information about the situation chimes in..


//Victor

First of all it was a very stupid thing to say by Siv Jensen, let's suppose a politician would say there were serious problems with for example Jews because they are the cause of problems in our country due to that they are exploiters, usurers and the cause of this and those evil things. I think we would all be disgusted by this statement and also would think this kind of generalisations about a certain group is ridiculous. I just read a dissertation about discrimination in sweden against jews from eastern europe durin 1860-1920 and it is very interesting to note some of the similarities in thinking from swedes who wanted to keep the eastern jews out.

Also not all in Rosengård are muslims (we must also think about what we mean by muslims as "muslim" is a broad term and a group that is extremely diverse and hetrogenous), even if this was true we must ask if this is relevant. Is it because they are muslims that they lash out like this? Or is it due to other problems that are behind this. Siv Jensens statment is of course the easiest, first of all it gives her popularity and attention among quite significant groups. But futhermore she blames the problems on "the others" and by that frees her self from any responsibility.

The riots in Rosengård was also, according to most sources I've heard, not mainly carried out by people in Rosengård but rather outsiders came to rosengård to create trouble. Rosengård is "under control" but not everything is fine. There are problems of poverty, unemployment and social problems, but this has nothing to do with muslims or christians or whatever.

Lastly, It is often said that immigrants are often suspicious of the police due to their experience with the government and police in their homeland. I don't believe this explanation..immigrants are not stupid, they know that Sweden is not their homeland, they can make that distinction. Also the rioters were young people, most of whom are probably raised if not even born in Sweden.
There is however an anti-police and gangster-ideal culture among many young people, swedish or not. Just take a look at the film and music industry - rappers and idols and makers of young peoples ideals who pose themselves as tough guys, pimps and gangsters, I think it is this culture that is the problem concerning this issue. (I'm not saying ban rap music or anything, I'm just saying what I believe is one of the source for this culture).

Personally I think the trouble makers should get another hobby..perhaps straight shaving

Interesting. Wikipedia offers slightly different point of view ...


Just outside the borough is Malmö Mosque. It is situated a few hundred metres from the Västra Skrävlinge Church, in a small park called Örtagårdsparken. Being the largest mosque in Malmö it is usually well attended. Adjacent buildings include a pre-school, a playground and child care.
In December 2008, rioting over several nights occured after a mosque and cultural center's lease was not renewed.[2] According to a study, the residents of the area believe this is more extremelism and radicals in the past five years.[3]

Rawaz.

Are you suggesting that you don't have a significant problem with criminal immigrants, mainly from muslim countries?
We certainly do in Norway.I believe these are problems that need public debate.Until now this has been a complete tabu in Norway.And I think to some extent, even more in Sweden.The Islamic council in Norway was asked two years ago if they supported death penalty for being homo sexual.They had to ask the European fatwa for advice, still no answer....
I believe that neglecting these problems only cause problems for the majority of muslims in Norway/Sweden that are in fact not extreme islamists and/or criminals.

Kristoffer

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Rawaz.

Are you suggesting that you don't have a significant problem with criminal immigrants, mainly from muslim countries?We certainly do in Norway.I believe these are problems that need public debate.Until now this has been a complete tabu in Norway.And I think to some extent, even more in Sweden.The Islamic council in Norway was asked two years ago if they supported death penalty for being homo sexual.They had to ask the European fatwa for advice, still no answer....
I believe that neglecting these problems only cause problems for the majority of muslims in Norway/Sweden that are in fact not extreme islamists and/or criminals.


Kristoffer

*Warning! Drunk posting!*

It is kind of tabu to discuss these things in Sweden, mainly among politicians, I have discussed these things with my friends, and I have muslim friends..And often we come to the same conclutions..=)

Don't know nothing about the islamic council or what they do...

Of course we have problems with criminal imigrants, muslims or non-muslims. I think that the reason for people to start riots or be criminal lies deeper than their religion. And as Rawaz said many of the troublemakers in the Rosengård riots was outsiders, just looking for a reason to throw stones at the police. The situation cooled down when "respected"( youth leaders etc). people from the Rosengård community started "patroling" the area, talking to youth and other potential troublemakers...

Wow,it's tough to discuss in english rater then swedish..


//Victor

The real question is why your "a" has a hat on it.

Rosengård

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Rawaz.

Are you suggesting that you don't have a significant problem with criminal immigrants, mainly from muslim countries?
We certainly do in Norway.I believe these are problems that need public debate.Until now this has been a complete tabu in Norway.And I think to some extent, even more in Sweden.The Islamic council in Norway was asked two years ago if they supported death penalty for being homo sexual.They had to ask the European fatwa for advice, still no answer....
I believe that neglecting these problems only cause problems for the majority of muslims in Norway/Sweden that are in fact not extreme islamists and/or criminals.

Kristoffer

I never said that there aren't problems with imigrants that are criminal..what I am saying is that they are not criminal because they are imigrants, muslims or whatever. Rather it is due to poverty, failed immigration policies and above all unemployment. To say that it is because they are of a certain ethic group or a certain religion can lead to very dangerous things apart from that it is total nonsence. What we should look at are the real problems and deal with them, not vote fishing and populism and taking the easy way out and blame it on the others as siv jensen has done. With this kind of thinking we should also then say Afro-americans are criminals just because they are black, not because they often are poor or have other problems within the american society.

About the "Islamic council" I really don't see your point when it comes to this issue. As you say most muslims are not islamists. The islamic council can only speak for themselves not for "muslims". A group or organization can claim they speak for all muslims but this is just not true., just as no one can speak for all christians, eventhough in the christian world this is easier as there are institutions like the papacy within catholicism. Islam however does not have a head chief or anything and is much less organized. Often in the west the Imam is seen as a preist when in fact the imam can be anyone, the imam only leads the prayer. There are however Mullahs in countries that are non-arab speaking, they form a sort of clergy as they are trained in arabic and scripture, they are needed as the general population can't speak arabic.
Anyway my point is that islam and muslims are so diverse that you cant say the islamic council did this or that therefor this is what muslims think or do.

We certainly do need a debate about these issues as I'm convinced it could only benefit the imigrants and discredit the extreme right and xenophobic elements. However the debate should be conducted on a high level so it does not become a propaganda soup, that would indeed become a powdercake (mmmm cake) that could blow up and become a great problem where the benefit would go to the extreme right and the islamists.

The problem is a complex one, and you cannot point at any particular group and say "it's their fault". However, it has nothing to do with religion. I think this will happen anywhere in the world when you bunch a lot of immigrants and refugees together. The city of Malmö created the growing ground for this situation years ago, and they're not alone. This is waiting to happen in other places as well.

There are lots of examples where immigrants (muslims or otherwise) have been well integrated into swedish society. Somehow, this never makes the news. In the little town where I live, we have virtually zero problems with muslim immigrants (although we have quite a few) - we have much bigger problems with native youth gangs.

The way I see it, one of the bigegst problems (in Rosengård, and other places) is alienation. The reason that kids feel like chucking rocks at the police and firefighters, and to destroy public property, is that they have never felt like a part of the society in which they live in. If they did, they would never have any reason to do what they do.

If we took a large population of Norwegians and dropped them into refugee camps in...let's say
...Osaka...with only bare-bones support, and closely guarded by suspicious japanese police, in time you would see the same situation there - and you'd get a japanese debate about the problem with "western immigrants".

It is a good idea to take a careful look at the immigration policies, but to point the finger at "muslim immigrants" is ignorant and chauvinistic.