Thread: Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by jmueller8

LOL! You and I are on opposite sides of the field on this one! I'm from the military mindset where if you mess up, just once, there's hell to pay and if you're foolish to let it happen again.... oh well I don't know many who didn't learn the first lesson. Your statement about decreasing crime in the society is accurate but there's still more incentive to stealing than being morally honest. Ultimately; I think that's the one thing that separates us all... morality. What's right and what's wrong period.

As for drug users: I spent 10 years in ER's and on rigs caring for druggies who only cared about their next fix.. I have no love there.

Jeff

I understand what you're saying. My response is that military discipline is good for the efficiency of the miilitary but it's not a good model for the type of society that I want to live in, which is tolerant of diversity and let's people learn from their mistakes. I'm also not quarreling with the lessons you learned from your ER experience but I would say that you're only seeing the end of a process that is all wrong. Granted that drugs are not good for you (I don't use them), a lot of the problems are created by the fact that drugs are criminalized. This makes them very expensive and makes people who are addicted turn to crime (while enriching the drug pushers). If drugs were available at their real cost of production, society would be a lot more tranquil and crime would go down. Then, you could take all that money that goes into law enforcement and use it to cure people. I think that we are both moral people, it's just that my approach to solving the problem is different. I think that mine goes more to the root of the problem, albeit more long-term.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

I'm all for speeding th processs. let them have their appeals, just schedule them on consecutive days then harvest their organs for sale to the highest bidder thus paying for the system. It could pay for itself and then some.

The number of innocent freed from dealth row is dwarfed by the number of appeals denied by the same system. Even those found innocent of the crime for wich they were sent to death row are rarely "innocent" of all crimes, often they are one parking ticket shot of death row anyway and most probably would have put themselves their had thy not been already sitting there.

Funny how places with the deathe penalty usually have lower crime rates than the areas that don't have it if it isn't a deterant. It may not deter the insane murderer but the more calculating criminal stays away, that give it a very positive value to me.

You're forgetting about how easy it is to corrupt the system by bribing judges. If we start harvesting organs from convicted murders, we'll see "organ entrepreneurs" staging murders and framing healthy specimens. I predict that there will be a movie made from your idea in a year or two.

As for places with the death penalty having lower crime rates, I challenge you to come up with evidence for that because, on its face, it is obviously not true. The US has the highest percentage of its citizens behind bars of any developed country and we have the death penalty.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Another important thing to think about is the high number of people sentenced to death who are later proved to be innocent.

Well.....there is a first time for everything........gasp........I agree with Chimensch!

I'm totally in favor of the death penalty but we have far too many false convictions right now to use that tool, in my opinion. I hate the appeal process, but it probably bought enough time for a lot of dudes to get exculpated by DNA evidence when it became available. So I think we get to use this totally appropriate tool when we get better at convicting the right guys.

Originally Posted by loueedacat

Well.....there is a first time for everything........gasp........I agree with Chimensch!

I'm totally in favor of the death penalty but we have far too many false convictions right now to use that tool, in my opinion. I hate the appeal process, but it probably bought enough time for a lot of dudes to get exculpated by DNA evidence when it became available. So I think we get to use this totally appropriate tool when we get better at convicting the right guys.

If you find yourself agreeing with me occasionally, don't worry, even a broken clock is right twice a day. As for getting better at convicting the right guys, I doubt that will ever happen.

Originally Posted by icedog

Mueller, please tell me you are trying to be funny here. This thread is drastically off balance. I can't tell if you gents are joking or have no concern for the single most important point as stated in very clear terms by Chimensch. It has been proven with dreadful repeatability that there have been wrongful convictions. Many men have been exhonerated and released from prison while awaiting execution. Illinois about five years ago abolished the death penalty because easily obtained DNA evidence proved 13 of the 24 prisoners awaiting execution were innocent of the crimes thay had been convicted of. The State decided that if 54% of the prisoners on Death Row at that point in time were innocent then it is statistically certain that the State of Illinois has killed innocent people. It is not a rare occurence. Remember Reuben "Hurricane" Carter?

No; I consider this an open and honest debate, free from ridicule, with all sides of the field "chipping in" with their opinions. I'd never heard of Reuben "Hurricane" Carter before and I had to look that one up... damn... Arrested and convicted "based on racism rather than reason and concealment rather than disclosure." I perceived the innocence one death row as a rare occurrence and had no idea the statistics were that high. That's a great case to present to the discussion.

Originally Posted by icedog

Why would you concern yourself with who will pay for the appeals to which a prisoner is legally entitled? Are you so far above it that the criminal justice system is completely alien to you?

My area of expertise is in emergency medicine. I am merely a spectator to the world that is the "Justice System" and therefore my speculations are just that... speculations. My earlier statement is simply from the observations that the legal system (appears... because I'm speculating) to be inundated with frivolous lawsuits and appeals.

Originally Posted by icedog

Do you consider the people that have been wrongfully convicted and executed due to failings in the government's system somehow less valuable than you? Are they disposable humans? Why don't you imagine for a moment that you or your father or your brother or your son have somehow gotten caught up in the system or worse, imagine they were at the wrong place at the wrong time and the prosecuter needed a victory. Imagine it is your son and he cashed in all his chips but he still hasn't enough money for a good lawyer so he gets the court appointed defence attorney who loves his new job but he just isn't any good at research or organizing the case. Imagine your loved one came home from work one day and found his wife had been strangled only five hours after the neighbor heard him threaten to kill her and they saw him storm out of the apartment. Even though he was at work and felt so bad all day he left early so he could patch things up. When he got home the police were there and they had already made up their minds your son was guilty. Then the prosecuter hand picked a jury of women who all believe your son was always drunk and beating his wife, even though he loved her more than life itself. So he doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell and almost before it started, the trial is over and your boy is sentenced to die by lethal injection. So he files two appeals and the public defender F's them up. Who should pay for the process then, or perhaps that isn't so important now?

If you knew me; you would already know that there would be "nothing" I would not do to protect my family! Your example is painfully clear about the errors in our justice system and I really hope that your writings are not directly related to you.

Originally Posted by icedog

What is important now is than an innocent man who never had the opportunity to even grieve for the loss of the woman he loved is going to die. Who will raise his two young children? Who will speak for your son? Who will pay for your loss? Who will tell your wife that her only son is to be killed by the government? What will they say, "Accidents will happen?"

I can only reply by what I perceive to justify such wrongdoings in the world: God! Everything that happens is for a reason! My 12 year old son has had more surgeries than many of you combined, he's had more systemic infections than any case study I've ever read, and he's been a nanometer from death a few too many times. Why me he's asked.. and to him I reply: "Because God has a plan for you that is so great, that these "events" are merely bridges to cross and look back upon. Why you? Because you are stronger than the rest of us!" It gives him hope and gives us (my wife and I) hope. Without hope all is lost!

As to his children, I'd be happy to adopt them and raise them as my own should their family not get custody!

Originally Posted by icedog

While I believe that a person who is absolutely guilty of murdering an innocent person with malice of forethought should be executed. I don't believe that capital punishment is a deterrent. I see it as a surgical removal of a malignant tumor from the body of our society. Still, I would rather house and feed a hundred guilty men for a hundred years thhan to take the life of a single innocent human being.

Brad

I agree "completely" with your analysis that it is far better to house hundreds who are guilty rather than "put them all down" and risk murdering an innocent person!

It appears that your have as much "faith" in the justice system as I have in the medical system! Just like me; I'll bet you are involved in every process when it comes to you and your family!

Thanks for the enlightenment!
Jeff

Originally Posted by Chimensch

I understand what you're saying. My response is that military discipline is good for the efficiency of the miilitary but it's not a good model for the type of society that I want to live in, which is tolerant of diversity and let's people learn from their mistakes. I'm also not quarreling with the lessons you learned from your ER experience but I would say that you're only seeing the end of a process that is all wrong. Granted that drugs are not good for you (I don't use them), a lot of the problems are created by the fact that drugs are criminalized. This makes them very expensive and makes people who are addicted turn to crime (while enriching the drug pushers). If drugs were available at their real cost of production, society would be a lot more tranquil and crime would go down. Then, you could take all that money that goes into law enforcement and use it to cure people. I think that we are both moral people, it's just that my approach to solving the problem is different. I think that mine goes more to the root of the problem, albeit more long-term.

All that time in the ER and with the Fire Department made me really cynical! It took me a long time to find "the greater good in people". Your suggestion is probably the best I've ever heard before! I don't like the idea that they are available; but, bottoming out the price might either bring up the supply and reduce the demand or have the obverse effect! (I have the kids yelling at me so I'm not as articulate at the moment.) Either way it's not a bad idea. You are right; I take the hard ass approach while you take the rational decision! My wife and I work on opposite opinions as well and I'm smart enough to know that diversity makes a better dish!

Awesome addition!
Jeff