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So, what do you guys think of this! I suspect, based on the little I have read that these guys are the scum of the earth, but do we ban their opinions and ideas?
I leave it to you guys!
As long as I can choose not to listen to it, I don't mind that there is no law against it. But, if music is used to blatantly and overtly incite specific rioting, violence, etc then I think it should be treated as any verbal or written threat
Sorry! Must've lost my mind for a minute.:gaah:Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
The article actually does a reasonably intelligent job of differentiating between censorship and making a business choice not to carry certain media.
Walmart generally does not sell albums with the Tipper Sticker on them. That's not censorship, they just think they can make more money filling their shelves with family friendly stuff.
The woman in the article who said that businesses have a "social obligation" to not sell offensive music is full of ****. Businesses have a social obligation to provide their shareholders with value while not violating laws or business ethics. The censorship of certain art is definitely not an ethical issue.
Pretty much everything that's even slightly interesting is going to offend someone. That's life. I also strongly object to the term "hate music." Most music is pro-something and anti-something-else. Look at acts like the Vandals or even Johnny Cash. Definitely not fans of law enforcement or government, but not usually labeled hate music.
I think an artist should be able to express him or herself freely. If people are offended, they'll vote with their money and I'll remain a starving artist. Maybe I'll be ok with that and stick to whatever offensive position I have chosen, or maybe I'll sell out and adopt something less offensive to sell albums. But it should be my choice.
In all honestly, I'm not a fan of retailers shrinking their catalogues based of pressure from a group of idiots like Turn It Down, but they have a right to if they wish. I just don't get why certain kinds of offensiveness are labeled as worse than others. As the white power activist in the article pointed out, you have all kinds of rap music glorifying violence to women and police officers, and that is not labeled as hate music either.
As a general rule, I like the statement attributed to Justice Louis Brandeis, "The remedy for bad speech is more speech."
Rich
It's not "censorship" as I understand it, if iTunes or Amazon refuses to sell it. They are private business, making the private business choice not to be associated with this filth. Or, they can sell it, earn money off the sales of violent racist music, and play the "It's not us, THEY make the music" card.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Personally, I feel there should be no law against it. Legally, the First Amendment protects them. Morally, I think anyone who allows themsleves to be used as a conduit for this garbage is nearly as guilty as those who spew the hate.
Great post smokelaw! I agree 100%, but what of rap music talking about rapin' ho's and killin' cops?
I would understand if a company refused to sell rap music that advocates those behaviors.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Now, why would I just 'understand" if they did that, where I would actively call for them to stop selling the racist music? I probably have some bias based on my Jewish left wing ideologies. I hate racists and anti-semites. I want to fix the problems in our society that cause "urban" music to be so filled with violence. I understand that I have this bias.
Also, is there a line? I'm sure there is. Tough "gangsta" speak, or actually getting explicit about rape and murder? Talking about being a Goog 'ol boy from kentucky? Calling for the elimination of those who will bring about a mud-race and calling for RAHOWA?
Whose job is it to draw that line? The government? Oh, nelly, then you have the 1st amendment to contendf with, unless the language is so specific as to be an ACTION, it's pretty much protected.
The "market," with business deciding who they will sell and not? Relying on the public to tell them what is right by voting with their wallets? Hmmm...I only trust that A LITTLE MORE than the govenrment (very little.)
Tricky topic! One very close to my heart. I am strongly opposed to the goventment being in my business. At the same time, racism and extremism are dangerous, and very much alive and well. In my mispent youth, I was sitting where the illegally removed back seat used to be in a friend's cousin's car. My firend IDOLIZED his cousin. We were driving along, drinking and smoking, being stupid teenagers, lsitening to hard core and metal. That's when I noticed the lyircs of one song, screamed at the top of the cousin's lungs along with the band. "EAT LEAD DROP DEAD AND SEIG HEIL, Mother Fu&%ing JEW!" I went ashen faced. When we got back to the house, I got in my car quickly and left. When I asked my friend about it, he quickly defended his cousin. "He just likes the music, he doesn't agree with what they say." I can't imagine that anyone can be ambivalent about or disagree with these people and listen to it.
where do you draw the line? should Apple be responsible to listen and vote on every track they sell as to whether it's offensive or not? how offensive before it's not ok to sell?Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
Music stores are like common carriers. They don't know (and in the case of Apple or Amazon, prolly CAN'T) the content of all the albums they sell, why should they bother? Look at it this way, if you ran a store that sold millions and millions of songs, with hundreds (or more) of new ones coming in every day... would you have time to always be checking the lyrics?
Also, when is it ok and not ok for a band to hate something? Only skin color? Religion (there's plenty of that, coming from every possible side)? Sexuality? Politics (could the Dixie Chicks be labeled as hate music? or Ted Nugent?)?
As I said before, most bands are anti-something and pro-something-else. That's the nature of music. Some people will always agree and some will disagree. Apple and Amazon are wise to stay out of it and just sell music and not worry about lyrical content.
So you hate them, and they hate you. But they are wrong and you are right?Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
I don't get it. Either hating is wrong or it isn't.
Great points Jockeys. If someone points out SKREWDRIVER to Amazon or iTunes, do I think they should elgally have to listen to it and make the call? hell no.
Do I think they SHOULD, morally, do a bit of checking where appropriate and remove the worst of the worst? Not allowing themselves to be used by extremists? Yes.
Will I no longer purchase from those avenues if they don't listen to my thoughts? nah, I'll still use them. Would I sign a petition or letter writing campaign to encourage them? join the facebook group (if one existed?) You bet.
COULD the Dixie Chix or Nugent be seen as hate groups? By someone? Sure. Do I think most rational people would? No.
I don't see how this is an argument. If a store is too busy to follow the law, it is not an acceptable excuse in court. But isn't illegal. I'm just saying being busy doesn't excuse anyone from making wrong decisions. I'd rather sleep well at night than be too busy to keep a clean conscienceQuote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
Not everything that is wrong is illegal
I never said hate was wrong. And yes, I do believe that they are worng and I am right (about them being wrong). BUT, to me more accurate with my speech, I should say I hate racism and antisemitism, homophobia (man, I don't like that word...how about antigayism...people aren't afraid of gays, they are just antigayites, IHMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
Hate the sin, not the sinner, that whole thing.
Only one song ought to be legally black listed:
YouTube - Joan Baez - Kumbaya (1980)
:chop:
As soon as the system lets me start giving out rep again, I am going to give you negative rep for that oneQuote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
where's the line for extremism? i know people who DO think the dixie chicks shouldn't be sold in stores. I know people who think that Skrewdriver should be on the radio (and it sometimes is, if you have satellite).
You advocate the morality of opposing extremism, yet all I can see is an arbitrary line in the sand that you've drawn. It represents your comfort level with certain ideologies. Nothing more. It's certainly not a guideline that can be used meaningfully.
Personally, I don't have much use for racism or racist music. Seems kinda silly to me to hate folks 'cause of how much melanin they were born with. But I'll defend, with my life if needed, the rights of those silly folks to state their opinions.
"Most rational people" isn't much of a guideline either. If we just go on popularity, all we've done is exchange on kind of majority harrassing a minority for some other majority harrassing a minority. Whether the minority is skin color or opinion, does it matter?
Whatever you are linking to doesn't work at my office. What song?
Kumbaya sung by Joan BiazQuote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
I think the burden of censorship lies within each individual, or their legal guardian. It's as simple as that. We cannot critique anyone for writing offensive music, as it is an expression of their viewpoint, regardless of how askew it may be to our own. However, parents should be the ones to explain to their kids that "killing jews," or "slappin' hos" is wrong, and should censor it.
When I was younger, my parents forbade me to watch Bevis and Butthead, because they said "testicles." Did my parents write an angry letter to MTV? No. Did I realize "testicles" was not something to be said to your parents, or to any authority figure? Yes. It was censored to me, due in large part to the diligence of my parents, as it should be.
Why do they think they shouldn't be sold in stores? because they think they are morally repugnant, and that the store owner would be doing a good act by not selling them. OK. If enough people agree, the owner has every right not to sell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
I don't deny that I am universally (though I won't agree with 'arbitrarily') against promoting hate. I admitted to my biases in my second post in this thread. I do, however, disagree quite strongly with your last sentence. A business most certinly MAY listen to its customers and to the public at large, and remove that music, art, etc that is most opposed by the most people. It is their right. I BELIEVE, because of my biases, that it is actually their DUTY to do so. You may not, that is fine, but do you believe it is their right? If they wouldn't any works showing blacks, jews, gays, immigrants, etc in ANY positive light, is that there right? Yes. Do I think they would become the wpowerhouses of the e-conomy acting in such a way? Nope.Quote:
You advocate the morality of opposing extremism, yet all I can see is an arbitrary line in the sand that you've drawn. It represents your comfort level with certain ideologies. Nothing more. It's certainly not a guideline that can be used meaningfully..
Agreed fully. Racists and extremists have every right to use their freedom of speech. The public at large, the "market" does not have to stand idly by while privat business helps them spread their bile.Quote:
Personally, I don't have much use for racism or racist music. Seems kinda silly to me to hate folks 'cause of how much melanin they were born with. But I'll defend, with my life if needed, the rights of those silly folks to state their opinions.
---shiver----Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Weren't you the one believing in free speech? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
The first amendement is meant to protect the unpopular speech. Popular speech doesn't need protection because people approve of it. You should be proud that you live in a place where people can spout their ideas.
Stereotype! this seems to happen alot! I never said in the opening post whether I was for it or against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
The first amendment was put in place so that the government could not curtail our free speech.
Jockeys, yet again you leave me with almost nothing to post.
I'll just add that music stores can choose to carry any legal music they wish. I can't put into words how much I dislike gangsta rap, but I don't expect Amazon or Apple to quit carrying it. I think that music [gangsta rap] is just as bad, if not worse, than the skinhead music from the article. Why worse? Because white society is so worried about being PC toward urban black culture that they let their kids listen to music glorifying rape, murder, abuse, and gang life. When it comes to white supremacists though, they [rightly] raise a fuss and don't let their kids listen to it. It's a sick double standard.
I only really hate two things in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.
Dead on! I agree 100%, well, maybe 95%. I think we can "critique" others for writing that music. We are free to do so as they are to write it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsthe2ndDfor
Regardless of who writes it, who sells it, PARENTS are the important "censors" when it comes to kids.
But...what do you think about PRIVATE bsuiness choosing to sell music like this? Hard core HATE music. Music that DOES say we would be better off with all non-whites dead?
I really don't understand the point of censoring ignorant bigoted viewpoints. I LOVE IT when ignorant bigots spout their nonsense. It lets me know they are ignorant bigots. It lets everyone know.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
Don't censor them. Publicise their stupidity!
"moral repugnance" is arbitrary because not everyone has the same morals. and as I said before, if we just go on popularity, all we've done is exchange on kind of majority harrassing a minority for some other majority harrassing a minority. Whether the minority is skin color or opinion, does it matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
Of course a business has a right to sell whatever it wants, whether because of customer demands, managerial whim, or pure randomness... it doesn't matter. But I disagree that a store has a duty to do so. again, the idea of duty is arbitrary. why should the duty to weed out hate-promoting music be any greater than violence-promoting music, etc.
That's their business. I can choose to spend my money there, or not. Just because I find something personally distasteful doesn't automatically justify moral outrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
An example, although intentionally humorous:
I am disgusted by fat people in revealing clothing. I really don't like it. So maybe when Victoria's Secret starts carrying plus sizes, I quit shopping there. I vote with my money. But do I get morally outraged and start picketing Victoria's Secret and demanding that they only sell clothes to skinny people?
Or course not, I'd look like an intolerant ass.
I think so. I would venture a guess that most reasonable people agree. I think itwould make the world a better place if this music was harder to get. I feel the same about ANY music calling for violence, or that glorifies rape, shooting cops, etc.Quote:
=jockeys;335499]Whether the minority is skin color or opinion, does it matter?.
I think there is a moral duty to make it harder to obtain this music. Why should it be different? I don't. If the music promotes ciolence as blatantly as Skredriver promotes racism, I think it should be handled roughly the same. I have NEVER heard of a rap group that is as focused on that aspect of the "culture" as the skinhead bands are....have you?Quote:
Of course a business has a right to sell whatever it wants, whether because of customer demands, managerial whim, or pure randomness... it doesn't matter. But I disagree that a store has a duty to do so. again, the idea of duty is arbitrary. why should the duty to weed out hate-promoting music be any greater than violence-promoting music, etc.
I agree with what Jockey's said...we can respectfully withdraw ourselves from any market we deem inappropriate. Also, I agree with what Ray said: I enjoy the intolerance of bigots because it is ridiculous how pig-headed they can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
However, to answer with more than a "yes, I agree," I would have to say that it is the given right of any person, American or otherwise, to present their own ideas in any manner they see fit, be it harmful, or intolerant; however they have to be prepared to accept the backlash against their actions. While governments allow freedom of speech, this isn't to suggest there won't be a backlash from the common people.
In short, picketing is just as legal as writing a song about killing black people because they're black. Provided nothing turns violent, we should all exist well enough.
---------------- Now playing: The Smiths - Oscillate Wildly via FoxyTunes
I love your example (and agree more than I care to admit publicly!). Things can be distasteful without inciting MORAL outrage, for sure. The topic at hand isn't one of them FOR ME. As for choosing to spend your money there, I agree completely. I think that that is the only way that I could get this behavior which I DON'T LIKE to change. By getting enough people to vote (or threaten to vote) with their wallets.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
The guy with a chair next to my tattoo artist thought the same way. No one else in the shop would do gang tats or nazi tats. he would. His theory: Better that they are all clearly marked. And with less money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajagra
Yep! My thoughts exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsthe2ndDfor
Gangsta rap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
I don't claim to be an expert on rap (as I never listen to it) but just a few minutes browsing on a lyrics website revealed all sorts of that stuff.
Just because Gangsta rap is about killing cops doesn't mean I don't listen to it. It's often utilized as a way of expressing their fight against oppression. Plus, it's not too hardcore to rap about "writing a stern letter to your local police department."Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
I will say, whenever a song comes on about killing cops and whatnot, I tend to ignore it or change songs; but a lot of "gangsta rap," such as Tupac's work, is really beautiful if you listen to it. It's not to say it's ok, but it's art in it's own regard...sort of like a pornographic painting of Queen Elizabeth can be art in the sense that it personifies the punk movement in Britain; so also does gangsta rap represent the rapper mentality of "me vs. the world," as an artful expression.
I still think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and can sing about whatever they want to.
Me neither, and I never claimed (I'm not THAT dumb) that it didn't exist. But I would be amazed to hear that terribly many rap groups are as singularly comitted to a message of hate and violence. Other less than desrieable things, for sure. The racist group exist FOR the racism. Does this distinction make any sense? Or does it exist purely in my own mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
I think a parent letting a child listen to any of it should have their head examined. I also think that stores selling it are selling things that are not good for our society, and I stand by my opinion that that gives rise to a moral duty to curtail said activity. There is always money to be gained by selling to the least common denominator in America, whatever the color of their skin.
I HAD to comment on this one. First off I agree with Jockeys all the way. He has said a lot that is dead on. As for the quoted comment above... Ever hear of Ice Cube?Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
Yes, the same Ice Cube who is really a movie star nowadays in all sorts of comedy roles etc. Well, he was also a rapper back in the day lol. A VERY anti-a lot of things one. One of those "Antis" was white people. Now I actually love a lot of his older stuff and am not offended by it at all. I really couldn't care. BUT the same venues that refuse to carry Skrewdriver I'm sure wouldn't even pay attention if you tried to point out some Ice Cube stuff. It makes them too much money because of his fame.
Some quotes about his music:
""No Vaseline," a vicious attack on N.W.A. manager Jerry Heller, was perceived as anti-Semitic, and "Black Korea" was taken as a racist invocation to burn down all Korean-owned grocery stores."
"his often violent, homophobic, and misogynist lyrics"
etc.
Here are some lyrics from his song "When Will They Shoot?". Keep in mind it is early 90's. Devil and Cracker both were derogatory terms used for "white person":
"But I never run, never will
Deal with the devil with my mother****in steel - BOOM!...
White man, is somethin I tried to study
But I got my hands bloody, yeah...
cause to us Uncle Sam, is Hitler without an oven
Burnin our black skin...
Here the mack come, here the black come, watch Jack run!
Mother****ers can't gank me
**** a devil, **** a rebel, and a yankee...
Now if I say no violence, devil, you won't respect mine
**** the dumb **** - and get my Tec-9
And if they approach us
A-ight, a-ight - I bury those ****roaches...
When they shoot, no, it won't be a cracker
They use somebody much blacker..."
Now keep in mind, I don't think any of this should be censored– I just think it is ridiculous the way some entities treat these situations with something less than fairness. Now here are some more rap lyrics that I found when doing a search. These could all be taken as racist and were all actually posted together on a different unrelated forum:
"Now I'm black but black people trip 'cause white people like me; white people like me but don't like them. . . . I don't hate whites, I just gotta death wish for mother****ers that ain't right";
"Race War"; Ice-T, Home Invasion, 1993, Priority Records
"Like my niggas from South Central Los Angeles they found that they couldn't handle us; Bloods, CRIPS, on the same squad, with the Essays [Latino gangbangers] up, and nigga, it's time to rob and mob and break the white man off something lovely";
"The Day the Niggaz Took Over"; Dr Dre, The Chronic, 1993,
"Bust a Glock; devils get shot. . . . when God give the word me herd like the buffalo through the neighborhood; watch me blast. . . . I'm killing more crackers than Bosnia-Herzegovina, each and everyday. . . . don't bust until you see the whites of his eyes, the whites of his skin. . . . Louis Farrakhan . . . Bloods and CRIPS, and little old me, and we all getting ready for the enemy";
"Enemy"; Ice Cube, Lethal Injection, 1993, Priority Records
"A fight, a nigger and a white, if the nigger don't win then we all jump in";
"Ghetto Mentalitee"; Onyx, All We Got Iz Us, 1995, Rush Associated Labels Recordings,
"Black power, it's in effect. . . . you still a slave to the man; prepare for revolution";
"Prepare to Die"; Ice-T, Original Gangster, 1991, Sire Records,
you wanna know what I think is in store, justice or race war. . . . being black ain't no ****ing minority, it's a ****ing majority, so they got to make us hate each other. . . . does somebody want a race war. . . . we're all together; open your eyes; get wise; put your brain in gear; who wants a race war";
"Race War"; Ice-T, Home Invasion, 1993, Priority Records, Thorn EMI
I got them hoping and praying for a great white hope, but all they come up with is great white dopes; clumsy honkies. . . . you're ****, whitey. . . . let's play a game; it's called, pin the tail on the honkey. . . . kick his ass; kick his ass; yoh, Apache, you really ****ed that white kid up. . . . sometimes I feel like that about white folks";
"A Fight"; Apache, Apache Ain't ****, 1993, Tommy Boy Music, Time Warner.
"Kill the white people; we gonna make them hurt; kill the white people; but buy my record first; ha, ha, ha";
Queen Latifah "Kill d'White People," Apache, Apache Ain't ****, 1993, Tommy Boy Music
"We're having thoughts of overthrowing the government. . . . the brothers and sisters threw their fists in the air. . . . it's open season on crackers, you know; the morgue will be full of Caucasian John Doe's. . . . I make the Riot **** look like a fairy tale. . . . oh my god, Allah, have mercy; I'm killing them devils because they're not worthy to walk the earth with the original black man; they must be forgetting; it's time for Armageddon, and I won't rest until they're all dead" "Goin Bananas"; Da Lench Mob, Planet of da Apes, 1994, Priority Records,
"I'm black with a bat, swinging at the head of a honky. . . . The Terrorists about to murder your ass"
"Blow Dem Hoes Up"; The Terrorists, Terror Strikes: Always Bizness Never Personal, 1991
So do you think your corner record store SHOULD sell that?
I think it would be nice if they didn't, even though they could sell moeny selling it. it's legal...sure, but just becasue they can SHOULD they?
I don't see that it is OK to sell white racist and violent music because it is not-not OK to sell black racist and violent music. (double negative is intentional, of course).
Some Rap is terrible and violent. Hence, it is OK to sell White racist music? I don't buy it.
I didn't want to get into it, but there is also the social-racial history of this country to deal with here. People in a perceived position of inequality/urban ghettos, etc., as opposed to the historical majority from whose hands were handed down the racial injustices (which I am sure we can all agree, at some point in our history, at least, did exist). This surely colors my opinion on the topic on some level.
Go to your local Wal-mart and try to buy gangster rap...it won't happen. Many stores reserve the right to sell what they want, and often family-friendly stores will not sell (or will heavily censor) certain artists or albums due to language or content.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
As far as a corner store, it's up to the owner. If the owner sells Nazi propoganda, but not rap...I imagine he / she's a racist who hates black people and likes Nazi's. It's as simple as that. If you owned your own corner store, you could sell all the music you wanted while still not selling Joan Baez for your own reasons, kumbaya included.
---------------- Now playing: The Smiths - Meat Is Murder via FoxyTunes
Mark,Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Why do you say this? Have you found some other FOX news drivel that told you you don't like Joan Baez?
Brad
Stop it or I'll cry Brad.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by icedog