Thread: Do soldiers ethics differ to that of civilians?

Originally Posted by icedog

Recon,

I think you are oversimplifying here. I would agree with you in the case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz However, as a soldier it was your duty to not only kill those identified as the enemy but to maintain yourself at least as well as you did your weapon. It was not your decision to kill for self preservation. It was your duty. If you were to get yourself killed by doing something stupid or illegal or if you committed suicide you could be subject to a Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD) posthumously.

Brad

Not over simplifying, just bringing it to its simplest form. When in a life threatning situation self preservation is the only instinct that takes over, it is not a concious decision its an automated resposne in our nature, so I am saying its not your decision to be selfish, it simply is human nature to be so.
Duty is an obligation to act in a certain manner for moral reasons. Key word in my point here being obligation. A concious decision to act a certan way based on socities rules of right and wrong. When your survival instincts are turned on duty is the farthest thing from the mind. In the heat of the moment the only thoughts are to kill before being killed. To me saying it was my duty to do what I did is simply making an excuse. Passing it off as if I am not the one resposibile. After everything is over you have too much time to think about it, you anayize every detail, mull over the what ifs, when it truth is simple, you just killed a human being. A son, maybie a father, a husband, a brother, for really no good reason other than you wanted to live. Saying it was my duty is just a B.S. way of justifying it so maybie I feel better about it.

Maintaining ones self is also basic nature. Some do shut down temporarly after their first time, but that is why the military is such a tight family. When one of us falter there are our brothers to help us pick ourselves up. Combat arms soldiers become brothers because of our shared experence. I am closer to the men I fought beside than my own blood because we were changed in that hell. Men are made anew by war as Sticky said "I think anyone doing an "active" combat tour will rapidly develop a new ethical code. Especially after seeing friends of several weeks or months getting bloody, maimed, crippled, and killed (repeatedly)." Not only do our ethics change but everything we thought we knew changes. My own mother has said she recognizes the face of her son but she doesnt know the man that returned from Iraq.

I had all the same questions I have seen here before my first deployment, the same way of thinking, thought that I understood all that has been discussed here. After my first firefight I saw everything clearly. No more fog over the subject. I then knew what war is, what ethics and morals are, what our animal instincts feel like.

sorry for the rant, and sorry if it went too far off topic.

-Recon

Originally Posted by Rajagra

Someone said that if a soldier kills someone identified as a civilian, that counts as murder. What if that civilian is throwing rocks? Firing a gun? Throwing a grenade? Refuses to stop a vehicle at a roadblock?

If they are throwing rocks they are a non combatant, they are not threatning life, limb, or personal property. To kill them would be illegal. They pick up a gun, they just became a combatant. If the soldier feels threatned he may engage to destroy (kill), deny (run them off), or detain (make them surrender). Grenade same story. Stopping a vehicle at a roadblock is where it starts to get harry.

Under the rules of engagement you MUST follow Escilation of Force procedures, which are as such:
1) Shout-Shout or speak over a P.A. system a verbal warning to stop and or that lethal force is authorised.
2) Show-Show your weeapon AND intent to use it.
3) Shoot-Fire a warning shot in a safe direction twords the vehicle.
4) Shoot- Engage the vehicle to destroy, deny or detain.
Vehicles are the biggest problem in the current conflict, because you can almost never know the intent of the occupants. I hated these operations because every time you would have to engage at least 1 vehicle, and 9 times out of 10 it was just an idiot who didnt want to stop.
-Recon

All mammals have three adrenaline threat response options: fight, flight or surrender. In the military those options still exist but the consequences are different for each action.

Considering that in the "Do you know any murderers and victims" thread that no one has said their dad, brother, uncle, or themselves were murderers because of armed forces duty, I am going to say there is a difference between civil and military killings.