Thread: For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

Originally Posted by Elliette

Nope. I have tried - and by tried I mean tried. In brief: My mother's family is Catholic (like Mexican and Polish Catholic, so Catholic)- I figured I should be, too. The more I studied, the less convinced I was of the whole thing, though. At first I thought I just had trouble with Jesus. It just seemed so unlikely, and also there was a lot of discrepency between the OT and the NT. Eventually I dropped out and let it rest a while.

We'd lived most of my life in heavily Jewish areas - old Eastern Euro, and NY influenced mostly. I loved the stories, the food, the people themselves. I felt very connected from a young age. I thought well, maybe I'm Jewish. I went through a very arduous process and made a full Conservative conversion. No mean feat, let me tell you. While I felt (and to a large extent still feel) at home with my people, I have never felt at ease with God.

The more I studied (Talmud and Torah this time) the less close I felt to the idea of God, and the more angry at the very idea, to say nothing of the actions depicted therein. BUT the closer I feel toward my fellow man. I am glad to trade that, to be honest. Finally, I just let go of god, as Julia Sweeney put it. I have been much more at ease ever since.

Not that I feel I have license to just do whatall - rather, I feel much more inclined to do things for the sake of my fellow human beings than for the glory of what I view as an invisible and non-existent creature. (And I will not even go into my view of the OT and NT god. It never sits well with people, so why, really? My views there are probably as offensive as the idea that I am going to hell for not believing, yes?)

In brief - I feel that justice should be worked for on earth, where we do have certainty of existence. Justice takes the form of actual legal justice, and the idea that we do have a responsibility to care for each other.

God tends to pain the conscience. Human kind runs from that pain into the arms of many distractions, one of which is religion itself.

I find for me that God lives in my heart and I could not accept him through the stumbling block of religion but only through daily searching, pondering.
Where ever your path takes you, I wish you luck. you seem a rather reasonable person and I have enjoyed your posts.

I asked because I think the term atheist is incorrectly used by a lot of people, that was a very interesting reply.

I've enjoyed reading this thread, I think this is one of the few threads where generally people have accepted that every one is entitled to their beliefs and whilst it is ok to share your own, and hope that people learn from them, you do not need to be dogmatic about it. That is something to be proud of.

Originally Posted by JMS

God tends to pain the conscience. Human kind runs from that pain into the arms of many distractions, one of which is religion itself.

I find for me that God lives in my heart and I could not accept him through the stumbling block of religion but only through daily searching, pondering.
Where ever your path takes you, I wish you luck. you seem a rather reasonable person and I have enjoyed your posts.

I never felt I was running from a pained conscience. I just never really got the belief. I felt badly about it, and irrationally felt badly for god that maybe I was hurting his feelings by not believing in him, but then one day I said - Well, what doesn't exist cannot be offended, so... What I was running from was the idea that I should believe. That idea came from people around me - family, social circles, etc. Once I let go of that - realized that the only sin, as Ann Druyan's grandfather put it, would be to pretend I did, I felt a lot better. Free. I live an honest life without pretending.

My mother is disappointed that I do not believe. But she realizes that the actions a person takes really count more than the beliefs behind them, and is generally pretty happy with me on that account, so all is well.

I try to act ethically. When I do not, that is where my conscience gets pained. Then I have to try to undo whatever it is I did. On Earth.

Originally Posted by Elliette

I never felt I was running from a pained conscience. I just never really got the belief. I felt badly about it, and irrationally felt badly for god that maybe I was hurting his feelings by not believing in him, but then one day I said - Well, what doesn't exist cannot be offended, so... What I was running from was the idea that I should believe. That idea came from people around me - family, social circles, etc. Once I let go of that - realized that the only sin, as Ann Druyan's grandfather put it, would be to pretend I did, I felt a lot better. Free. I live an honest life without pretending.

My mother is disappointed that I do not believe. But she realizes that the actions a person takes really count more than the beliefs behind them, and is generally pretty happy with me on that account, so all is well.

I try to act ethically. When I do not, that is where my conscience gets pained. Then I have to try to undo whatever it is I did. On Earth.

Curious to know how you perceive where the uniqueness of conscience in man came about ?

In Re - Paco - I do not claim to know for sure. I am looking at a combination of evolutionary biology/neurology, and societal pressure/tradition.

Originally Posted by paco

Curious to know how you perceive where the uniqueness of conscience in man came about ?

There is a great, and rather arrogant, assumption there.

Originally Posted by gregs656

There is a great, and rather arrogant, assumption there.

Well, he has made his position in re god/no god pretty clear, yes? This brings up something though, which is that it seems that often times "god did it" is the end of the line for exploration. There is a huge discomfort with the phrase "I don't know", and this seems to lead to what is termed a "god of the gaps" position.

I am wondering, and Paco seems qualified to answer this - how is it you believe that god is the source of such things? On what do you base this? What do you view as acceptable proof?

This thread reminded me of this bit...

This is meant in a light-hearted manner - a joke. The man is a comedian. I don't want to be called out for being offensive, so if you can't laugh at yourself or the human condition, please don't watch.


YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit.