Thread: Homeopathy -- fact or trifle?

he was given a tincture, which of course had undetectable levels of 'active' ingredient in it.

That's different to homeopathy, where you probably have zero active ingredient left at the end. The subastance is diluted so many times that the probability of having even one molecule of the original substance remaining is negligible.

Imagine throwing a green ball into a swimming pool that already contains 999 red balls, stirring it up, then pulling out a ball at random. Put that ball into another swimming pool having 999 red balls, stir it up and draw another ball at random.

You now have a 1 in a million chance of holding the green ball and 999,999 in a million of having a red ball.

Homeopathy is claiming that even though you (almost certainly) end up with a red ball, some of the green-bally-ness has rubbed off on to it and that attribute enables it to do something.

Except in homeopathy we aren't talking 1 in a million probabilities, we're talking 1 in billions of billions or more.

The ultimate form of homeopathy is walking past a pharmacy without going in!

Now, any treatment needs to be investigated thoroughly. But when it flies against all existing knowledge of physics and chemistry, the burden of proof is even higher.

If an effect exists in any significant measure, it can be proven to exist through properly conducted trials. If homeopathists are confident in the reality of their treatment, they should prove it works. They have not done so. It is that simple.

Originally Posted by Rajagra

That's different to homeopathy, where you probably have zero active ingredient left at the end.

Ray, you may be splitting hairs here. Would you say that zero active ingredient was an undetectable level? I'm not sure we're saying different things. In fact, I'm sure we're saying the same thing, just different ways.

My past with medical education tells me exactly what you've written. But then, as the NHS seems to think, if it can lead to a beneficial effect, why not support the service?

I used to think that it was ridiculous, but after some investigation into eastern medicine, I think there is something there. I don't think it's a cure all, but I do think that botheastern and western medicine have their place.

My problem with most homeopathy/herbalism are many. Here aresome off the top of my head.

There is so little well done science that it is really hard to draw any conclusions at all. Often the research has no control group.

There is seldom any data on the side effects of the treatment.

There is no standardization of product. Method of processing can dramatically affect the chemical composition of an herbal product. Since we don't know what the active ingredient is, we can't know which processing method works best. (this is better in Germany where this is better regulated).

If the benefit is present in the fresh product, does it degrade over time

By the time most "natural" products reach the consumer it has been processed so much that it isn't natural anymore.

Many ingredients come from places where insecticides on crops for human consumption is poorly regulated. Same goes for sanitation.

So, basically you are at the mercy of the ethics of the producing company.

I would rather trust the FDA.

Using herbs and plants is a no brainer. Long before we had "modern" medicine people were treated with herbal remedies and in fact many of our modern medicines come from plant extracts. What has given herbal remidies a bad name are charletons who claim they will cure everything and others who combine ingredients and claim miraculous outcomes and many of these things are actually harmful. If you want to look at herbal treatments you need to look at the things that have been used over the past few thousand years over and over again.

Homeopathy is totally different the idea you can take an offending item and take it in small quantities and your body will fight off the illness.

Over the years many studies have been done and the results were clear that Homeopathy had no positive result. When offered to take part in scientific studies homeopthy practicioners have always refused.

As far as xtls and stuff like these bracelets they sell those are out and out fraud.

Originally Posted by Pyment

My problem with most homeopathy/herbalism are many. Here aresome off the top of my head.

There is so little well done science that it is really hard to draw any conclusions at all. Often the research has no control group.

There is seldom any data on the side effects of the treatment.

There is no standardization of product. Method of processing can dramatically affect the chemical composition of an herbal product. Since we don't know what the active ingredient is, we can't know which processing method works best. (this is better in Germany where this is better regulated).

If the benefit is present in the fresh product, does it degrade over time

By the time most "natural" products reach the consumer it has been processed so much that it isn't natural anymore.

Many ingredients come from places where insecticides on crops for human consumption is poorly regulated. Same goes for sanitation.

So, basically you are at the mercy of the ethics of the producing company.

I would rather trust the FDA.

You trust science and the FDA alot more than I do. The FDA,remember said Sacharin was safe, then decided it caused cancer,has approved growth hormones for livestock etc. I'm sure more could be came up with given the time and research, but suffice it to say, imho the FDA isn't the be all end all.

Control groups? Herbs were used for years by Native Americans with no problems. As with anything,one should let their Doctors know that they are taking herbs.

I believe that herbs were placed on earth for a purpose,not just to flavor food. I'm not so hardcore that I think herbs will cure some diseases, Diabetes for example,but, I do believe that they can help control it,which is all science has been able to do. I use herbs along side my insulin etc to help aid in my diabetes,and pain control. Cinnamon, for instance helps one to control blood sugar.

There is a homeopathic that I take that helps with sports injuries (sprains etc), called Traumeel,I took some after injuring a rib and for a diabetic that doesn't heal quickly, I was over the injury alot quicker than I thought I would be.

I agree, there is no standardization ofthe various products, but some manufacturers DO stringent testing before they sell them. For instance Nature's Sunshine does quite a number of tests on their products, up to 588. Here's a link to their page on testing.

Actually, the herbs do lose some strength over time,but just as anything fresh is best.

Like I said, I'm a skeptic about such things,but do believe that in times past, before we had "medicine" as such, herbs were what people used for headaches, sprains, cuts, burns etc.

That kind of testing will catch impurities, insecticides, and other contaminants.

It will not, however, identify levels of active ingredient in most cases where it isn't known.

It will not detect toxic byproducts of herb metabolism. For example in the 80's L-tryptophane was used as a sleep aid. As an amino acid, one would expect it to be a safe product. It was linked to a disease called "eosinophilia myalgia syndrome". Later the causative agent was found to be 1,1' - ethylidenebis a byproduct of bacterial fermentation used in the processing.

Another supplement, 5-hydroxytryptophan, has been linked to a similar syndrome. They found an oxidation product in the supplement that has identical properties to a neurotoxin.

A similar syndrome was found in contaminated rapeseed oil in Spain during the 1980's.

Hepatotoxicity may be the most frequent adverse reaction to herbal remedies. Some of the more frequently reported offending herbs include Chinese remedies and teas (Jin Bu Huan, Ma-Huang), germander, valerian, mistletoe, skullcap, chaparral, comfrey, and herbal teas containing toxic alkaloids, pennyroyal oil, and kava. Although frequently transient, cases of chronic liver disease and acute liver failure have been described.

I don't know if you have to be a member to see these pages:

Herbal

The toxic alkaloids mentioned above are listed here:
Pyrrolizidine

here is a great example of why i like to research and try more then just "medicine":

my aunt suffered from neuropia (i think that is how it is spelled, basically very bad circulation in here legs though i'm sure it is more complicated) for years, was on 10 different medications for everything from high blood pressure, to high cholesterol, to 3 different drugs to try and help the poor circulation. my dad convinced her to come in and do some ionic foot baths (i know that one is going to get people going) so she decided to do 5 in a 2 week period. after the first session she was 50% better in her words, the second improved even more, and once she finished the 5 she was on the tread mill an hour per day and walking with her grand kids for another hour, plus she STOPPED taking ALL her medications (though i don't recommend people to up and quit taking doctor recommended meds). when she walked in to do the first footbath she was using 2 canes and in pain. now she keeps one with her just in case but never uses it. also, when her doctor performed the usual tests on her (she was seeing him once a month because of her problems) her cholesterol was normal, blood pressure was perfect and her circulation was almost normal again. he said "wow the drugs are really starting to work for you eh?" and she handed him the info on the footbaths and politely told him that she wasn't taking the drugs anymore. this was over a year ago and she continues to improve.

also, my dad crushed the ends of two fingers off while working in a factory. the doctor told him he could let it heal or they could skin graft from his butt and see what happens. the absolute only thing he did was spray it with silver hydrosol (not the homemeade stuff i might add) and cover it with gauze. after 2 days there was skin covering the woulds (one was literally to the bone the other wasn't as bad) and after 2 months you wouldn't know which fingers had been damaged. no scar no bumps nothing. he went back to our doctor to show him and our doctor was amazed as he had seen the damage before and couldn't believe it. BTW this is the same silver hydrosol that is kept in EVERY surgery room in Canada (not sure about elsewhere) and is one of the oldest remedies out there.

that being said, i run a health food store and ABSOLUTELY realise that there are SOOOOOOOO many bogus products out there. i'd say that in my experience 30% of the products (and thats being nice) on the market are for real, most of which are simple things that are in no way new. thats not to say that there aren't new products that are great, but you really have to do your research.

being a skeptic is great and i tell everyone that they should be skeptical as you are putting these things in your body. but simply denying the possibility of alternatives is close minded in my opinion.

Wes

Herbal medicine, yes. And if it works it ceases to be alternative medicine, like eg. willow bark aka acetylsalicylic acid aka aspirin.
Therapeutic effects of extra care and specific attention for the individual, yes, obviously that too.

But homeopathy - vehemently no!

Its two basics, 'if something causes a symptom it can induce curement of the same' and 'the further you dilute the more powerful the effects', are too ridiculous for words and contra all we know about the world. Add to this notions of 'memory of fluids' - selective memory even! - and effects of the force and intentions (!) with which fluids are shaken in the process of diluting, and I think adherence to homeopathy for other reasons than ignorance, diplomacy and perceived placebo effects can safely be said to border on the stark raving mad.

To be even more pronounced: I honestly and strongly think that general practitioner's and other scientifically trained medical professionals who practise homeopathy are frauds at worst or short-sighted and not worthy to be called academics at least. I don't know which is worse. Both ought to lead to stripping of academic titles and revoking all license in regular medicine.

There, I said it. The only thing I regret about it, is that I seem to disagree with quite a number of rather friendly, intelligent and reasonable people whom I risk offending, not least 0livia, who's views on practically every other topic at SRP I value very highly indeed.