One related to the joke thread controversy

[JimR]

I personally believe that in cases of pure, 100% surety, then the death penalty is justified. Jeffrey Dahmer? Kill him. Ted Bundy? Gone.

Sure.

But.

But there is a simple problem here that I don't see how you can solve.

Killing an innocent person = murder. Murderers deserve execution. Execution, being an endeavor of men, is imperfect. Imperfect execution will inevitably lead to the killing of an innocent person. See where that leads?

It is virtually guaranteed that innocent people have been executed--the numbers are simply too big, and the people who have had last minute acquittals based on real evidence are just too numerous. If you truly believe that all society takes on the burden of execution, a belief that I personally support, then it is virtually guaranteed that American society is guilty of murder.

When someone is dead, they are GONE. You can't release them, you can't compensate, it's over. Yes, that's what makes murder as heinous as it is, which is why societies should not engage in it. When a society condones the possible murder of innocent people in the name of "playing it safe", then society has gone bats**t insane, and does not deserve to be safe.

[JMS]

But there is a simple problem here that I don't see how you can solve.

Killing an innocent person = murder. Murderers deserve execution. Execution, being an endeavor of men, is imperfect. Imperfect execution will inevitably lead to the killing of an innocent person. See where that leads?

It is virtually guaranteed that innocent people have been executed--the numbers are simply too big, and the people who have had last minute acquittals based on real evidence are just too numerous. If you truly believe that all society takes on the burden of execution, a belief that I personally support, then it is virtually guaranteed that American society is guilty of murder.

When someone is dead, they are GONE. You can't release them, you can't compensate, it's over. Yes, that's what makes murder as heinous as it is, which is why societies should not engage in it. When a society condones the possible murder of innocent people in the name of "playing it safe", then society has gone bats**t insane, and does not deserve to be safe.

You pay your money and take your chances!

[JimR]

You pay your money and take your chances!

Well, good luck to us all, then...

[JMS]

Well, good luck to us all, then...

Thats kind of how I feel. Either every step you take is a potential pitfall or you do what you have to do and trust that a higher authority than humans will sort it out in the end.

[JimR]

Thats kind of how I feel. Either every step you take is a potential pitfall or you do what you have to do and trust that a higher authority than humans will sort it out in the end.

But...you don't HAVE to kill people. There are options. You really can lock them in a cage and leave them there. Then, if you found out you made a mistake there's still a chance to make some kind of amends...as a society, murdering people "just in case" is not something I think we can justify.

It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter if you kill the wrong person, because God will take care of your mistake in the end. In which case, there is no reason not to kill anyone you think might be dangerous, because God will be there to mop up afterward. And that is a very very slippery slope.

[JMS]

But...you don't HAVE to kill people. There are options. You really can lock them in a cage and leave them there. Then, if you found out you made a mistake there's still a chance to make some kind of amends...as a society, murdering people "just in case" is not something I think we can justify.

It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter if you kill the wrong person, because God will take care of your mistake in the end. In which case, there is no reason not to kill anyone you think might be dangerous, because God will be there to mop up afterward. And that is a very very slippery slope.

I will reiterate. We all must do what we must, as we see fit for any given situation and in the end we will be judged for our actions.

I would rather step forward based on what I see as right and end up being wrong than hesitate at every step.
More traffic accidents are caused by a hesitant driver than the c0ck sure idiots who fly by at breakneck speed weaving through traffic.
Now don't get me wrong. I dont want to be the c0ck sure idiot, but I won't endanger anybodies life by my hesitations either.

[JimR]

I will reiterate. We all must do what we must, as we see fit for any given situation and in the end we will be judged for our actions.

I would rather step forward based on what I see as right and end up being wrong than hesitate at every step.
More traffic accidents are caused by a hesitant driver than the c0ck sure idiots who fly by at breakneck speed weaving through traffic.
Now don't get me wrong. I dont want to be the c0ck sure idiot, but I won't endanger anybodies life by my hesitations either.

I am talking about the death penalty, you are talking about self defense (I hope). Killing without hesitation, when there is no immediate danger, is the mark of someone with absolutely no regard for human life, and thus a true danger to society.

[JimmyHAD]

But...you don't HAVE to kill people. There are options. You really can lock them in a cage and leave them there. Then, if you found out you made a mistake there's still a chance to make some kind of amends...as a society, murdering people "just in case" is not something I think we can justify.

It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter if you kill the wrong person, because God will take care of your mistake in the end. In which case, there is no reason not to kill anyone you think might be dangerous, because God will be there to mop up afterward. And that is a very very slippery slope.

I go back to retribution. A case in point. About five years ago 2 guys went into a little restaurant across the street from the tattoo shop I work in. They sat down a half hour before closing and ate. When they were done they herded the lady who owned the place, the waitress and the dishwasher (a 17 year old girl) into the kitchen. They shot the three women in the head, took approximately $120.00 and got away.

They were caught because one of the two was proud of what they had done and bragged to a friend who dropped a dime on them. They did not deny the crime. These two were sentenced to life in prison. They are breathing air. Maybe one or both is taking high school or college classes. Perhaps playing baseball, lifting weights or maybe they have acting classes and a theater group within the prison.

The three innocent victims can't do any of those things. They are deprived of their lives and their loved ones only have the bitter memories. For most victims ( they seem to have been left out of the conversation) there are loved ones left behind to grieve and always remember how the death came about.

I abhor the thought of anyone being imprisoned for a crime that they didn't commit much less put to death. I, like the majority of the people in the USA, am pro the death penalty. I understand your point of view but taken to the logical .... or is it an illogical.....conclusion we had better not incarcerate anyone lest we mistakenly imprison an innocent person.

[JimR]

Jimmy, in the first case you're addressing a point I didn't make, and in the second you're setting up a straw man.

I never said I oppose the death penalty on principle. I believe that there are those who do, in fact, don't deserve life. I can't judge whether those two scum bags do or not, though...the power over life and death is not one I wish to hold.

I oppose the death penalty in practice, because the wrong people die. People (prosecutors? defense attorneys? Police?) lie, or are lazy or venal or just plain wrong, and innocent people losing their lives is not, under any circumstances, the way a society should deal with its problems.

As for "not incarcerating anyone", Jimmy please. No one made that argument, and it does not in any way follow from what I said. I wish you would show me more respect than that. I could as easily say that Mark advocates killing everyone on earth, because God will sort it out anyway.

Death is irreversible. The end. If we kill an innocent person, God's not going to say,"Nope, sorry guys, let's give those kids their father back because you screwed up." But if we lock them up, and then figure out that they are, in fact, INNOCENT--they still live. It's not over.