Who do you "pray" to?

**jcd** · 08-07-2009, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by ENUF2

Did you even look at this website?
FAQ: Does intelligent design theory implement the scientific method?

Oh, the irony!

The site linked above is jawing about "irreducible complexity". This idea (take a bow Dr Michael Behe) has been debunked in different ways by different people.

I'll say it again, Talk Origins : An Index to Creationist Claims

**jcd** · 08-07-2009, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by bbshriver

But how do any of those technologies relate to evolution?
You're suggesting that electromagnetism evolved?

Yes, of course. Electricity from lightning results in new species forming.

Haha, gotcha!?

I was pointing out that once a theory yeilds viable technology, doubting it is unreasonable. Electromagnetism is one such theory, and so is Evolution.

At least as of the last biology class/textbook I had (2003) mutation resulting in a new species was completely unverified.

The phenomenon is called speciation, and it has been observed. The Talk Origins archive is good for this sort of stuff.

**Seraphim** · 08-07-2009, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by jcd

I don't know how I can be more clear.

I pointed out three scientific theories: electro-magnetism, atoms, and gravity.

I then pointed out three technologies based on these theories: radios, bombs, and falling pianos.

Isn't it obvious that denying the theories while accepting the technology is absurd?

take one of these: Gravity.

Obviously gravity works, gravity is there.

It does not require an explanation of how it works from us for it to work.

There are some ideas out there about how does gravity work, but it is all still theoretical, no? Einsteinian space/time, etc, etc. tries to explain things, but the function of gravity does not depend on having a valid explanation of it or not.

**Seraphim** · 08-07-2009, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by jcd

The phenomenon is called speciation, and it has been observed. The Talk Origins archive is good for this sort of stuff.

Could you please provide a direct link to proven speciation?

EDIT:

OK, I looked on your previous link. One exaple they give:

Scallops of the genus Chesapecten show gradual change in one "ear" of their hinge over about 13 million years. The ribs also change (Pojeta and Springer 2001; Ward and Blackwelder 1975).

OK, so you again have change within a species over time, it does not provide any evidence that I saw (a rather brief review) of change from one form into another. The example above is documented over 13 million years as well.

**Seraphim** · 08-07-2009, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by jcd

I wasn't just referring to evolution being observed forwards, with lineages splitting into a tree like structure. It can be varified backwards, from the branches to the trunk, using genetic markers, so despite what you say, it has been proven. This is what is used to identify unknown organisms, and allows them to be attacked if necessary. (This is the same technology which will verify if the child who looks suspiciously like the mailman really is who he is supposed to be.)

You allude to, but don't use the (horrible) terms micro/macro evolution. You believe in micro, but not macro. This position doesn't have a basis because
a) there are no barriers (even proposed barriers) to prevent many micro events adding up to a macro event.
b) macro evolution has been proved to have happened, using genetic evidence.

Can you please provide a link that documents clear genetic evidence linking two seperate species?

**jcd** · 08-07-2009, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Seraphim

There are some ideas out there about how does gravity work, but it is all still theoretical, no? Einsteinian space/time, etc, etc. tries to explain things, but the function of gravity does not depend on having a valid explanation of it or not.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here - everything (natural) functions whether we have explanations for them or not. The point I was getting at is that theories become hard to question when they yield technology. (by the way, dropping the piano was just a joke)

Regarding Einstein, it's not just theoretical. Time dilation (the faster you move, the slower your clock ticks) has been observed. Another observed prediction is gravitational lensing, where light is seen to actually bend around large masses. Relativity plays an important part in the accurate functioning of GPS (a constellation of military satellites maintained by the USA).

Speciation:
Talk Origins <1><2>has a section on this with references. Unfortunately, alot of the journal citations require payment to view (they make money from university subscriptions), but the Abstracts (a summary of sorts) are free to view.

One cool one I found not on TO documents one speciation event causing a chain reaction of speciation events.

Sequential sympatric speciation across trophic lev...[Science. 2009] - PubMed Result

I looked on YouTube for Speciation. There are some videos, but they're a bit dry, so no links.

Genetic Evidence, Common Ancestry:
Talk Origins again: The Molecular Sequence Evidence. Section 5 at the bottom (Endogenous Retroviruses, ERVs) is quite easy to understand. Here's a good video that boils it down to as simple as it gets. ERVs are often reffered to as the "slam dunk" for Evolution.

YouTube - Evidence of Common Ancestry: ERVs

**richmondesi** · 08-07-2009, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by xman

Quibble, quibble. I'm sure if I had come out and said all Christians are crackpots you would consider some of that personally so please don't set a trap for me and say, "He started it". I repeat again that I am trying to clear up your misconceptions, NOT make you into an Atheist. People refuse to admit that the earth was formed 14 billion years ago even though all the evidence says so and no evidence, only dogma contradicts it.

My point was that I'm a very religious person that is not trying to convince you of anything... Isn't it ironic that you are trying to proselytize me to your faith in man and science while I am not trying to do the same to you? Call me a "crackpot", I'd respect you more for it. At least it would show a hint of honesty

Originally Posted by xman

They refuse to admit that the scientific process is above your opinion or my opinion or anyone else's. It is designed to overcome, as much as we can, the tendency for human failure in perception and thinking. But whenever I point out the overwhelming evidence science provides, you still seem to think that I'm preaching or touting an opinion which is only as valid as yours is. It's simple. You're wrong about that. I try to point you in the right direction, one supported by evidence rather than scripture, but you won't have it. And here's the thing. The life of dogma is retrograde and dangerous. It stupefies and discourages critical thought. It should not go uncontested.

You don't have an explanation for how evolution began or the origins of the universe that has or can be proven. You have a theory that leaves a lot of unanswered questions that are incapable of being answered. You calling dogma "retrograde and dangerous" is downright offensive and arrogant to such a degree as to render you unfit to sit at the table of rationale discussion. You are far from civil, and you should apologize for this behavior.

Originally Posted by xman

Please watch this again to discover how you are incorrect.
YouTube - Open-mindedness

*sigh* No, although I can see how it would be easy to draw that conclusion.

**ENUF2** · 08-08-2009, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by ENUF2

Vestigial Organs: The Wings of the Flightless Cormorant - Richard Dawkins

I was going to get deep but there's no hope for any common ground.
Mr. Dawkins calls this "in a negative direction" . This to me is micro evolution (within a species) no proof in chemical data only mutation. The wings still have purpose because without them the bird would not be able to catch its food.

The bird that fishes, but doesn’t fly

Intelligent design does not claim to be science but Theory. The issue is anyone attempting to bring anything other macro evolution to their peers for scientific consensus is gonna face opposition that hasn't been seen since the inquisition( Galileo who was a religious man and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life because of what he was suggesting not only by the church but was also condemned by his "peers") .
Did you even look at this website?
FAQ: Does intelligent design theory implement the scientific method?

Here is a vid about peer review
Discovery Institute

I haven't the time right now but I will be back.

Ok, I'm back.

Ranks of Scientists Doubting Darwin’s Theory on the Rise
CSC - Ranks of Scientists Doubting Darwin’s Theory on the Rise

a nice little article with a link to a signed document about

A SCIENTIFIC DISSENT FROM DARWINISM
There are over 700 Scientists who have already signed up.

If you have been immunized against anything, you are using technology that would not have been developed if Evolution were false.

The man who is called the father of immunization, his name was Edward Jenner,a Christian. (Small pox vaccine)
Doctors who followed Christ: thirty ... - Google Books

If you go to the hospital with an unknown infection, they would not have a clue how to identify it if Evolution were false.

The basic history of the germ theory is given in many texts, most often giving credit to the experimental work of Pasteur, Lister, and Koch. However, the role of worldview, and the fact that many of these scientists were Christian and creation biologists, is often left out.

Creation and the Germ Theory - Answers in Genesis

Also Hosptals were began By Christians
Hospital origins - early Christians established first hospitals - Brief Article | National Catholic Reporter | Find Articles at BNET
Jesus Himself met people in their need and healed them.
When the sun was setting, all those who had anyone sick with various diseases brought them to Him. As He laid His hands on each one of them, He would heal them.
Luke 4:40 (HCSB)

This thread started out as who do you pray to and my answer was
(To God the Father in the name of His only begotten Son Jesus (Christ is His Title not His name).) I also mentioned a man by the name of Simon Greenleaf who through the use of forensic evidence stated that Jesus had to be exactly who he said he was not in spite of but because of the evidence. Professor Greenleaf (Harvard law school) is known as the father of modern forensic evidence. Here's a site for that too.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Fact or Fiction?
I may have already put this out here if I did I'm sorry but this was about who we pray to and we aren't going nowhere else it seems.

You don't pray that's your choice. Just a little useless knowledge did you know that Seattle WA is the city that has the most people on anti-depressants? Did you also know they have less churches pre percentage of people than any other city (That's not just Christian Churches all churches).

Faith definition Websters Dictionary

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; synonyms see belief

Faith definition New testament HCSB

Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. Heb 11:1 (HCSB)
We will take this verse just a little further...

Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. 2 For by it our ancestors were approved.3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible. Heb 11:1-3 (HCSB)Again I'll say I follow Jesus, Not the church not the denomanation I follow the One who said,

“If anyone wants to be My follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me and the gospel will save it. 36 For what does it benefit a man to gain the whole world yet lose his life? 37 What can a man give in exchange for his life? 38 Mark 8:34-38 (HCSB)

This is the best short answer for who Jesus is that I know.
5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. 7 Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form, 8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death—even to death on a cross. Phil 2:5-8 (HCSB)

One more thing about faith
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him

Here's just one more site on The Impact of Christianity "What if Jesus had never been born"
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and...f-Christianity

**gugi** · 08-08-2009, 05:28 AM

i think people worry a bit too much about who's right and who's wrong.

Few decades ago almost no scientist believed in the microwave background, yet eventually they took a look and lo and behold there was a EM radiation all over the place...

Usually these type of things slow down 'progress' by a couple of dozen years only, so in the long run it works out.

I say if you can make stuff by praying why not just go for it.
If it works no doubt people will join you sooner rather than later. As long as the wine is good most regular people will drink it, but if it's a koolaid it'll be the opposite.

**JMS** · 08-08-2009, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by gugi

i think people worry a bit too much about who's right and who's wrong.

.

I agree Ivan. They should be more concerned with whats right and wrong, and then act accordingly.

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