Constitutionality of Obamacare

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

So anything the president allows congress to pass, is constitutional? What is the purpose of the supreme court and their job of weighing legislation against the constitution? Its kind of funny you using the video we watch in like 3rd grade to make your decision about constitutionality.

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Because it's funny doesn't make it any less applicable.

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

You missed the part, even though you bolded it, among the states. Insurance is within the states.

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I didn't miss anything. There is a precedent that says the commerce does not necessarily have to cross state lines. Atlanta Motel vs. U.S. -- hotel owner tried to fight the Civil Rights Act by saying he could deny blacks the right to stay because it was a private business. Courts used the commerce clause to overrule him even though his commerce was contained within Atlanta.

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

What about the people who dont use insurance, because they dont need it? I dont see any difference between those with insurance paying extra for those who get services without having the ability to pay, and everyone paying more for those who dont have the ability to pay. There are other options in regards to your provision as well, like charitable organizations, state and local governments, friends and family, and even charitable care by the hospitals and doctors. Imo, the main reason healthcare is so expensive is because of the insurance companies, now you want to force everyone to have to buy health insurance, there is no way this will bring down healthcare costs, except for the few who couldnt qualify because of pre-existing conditions. Every one else will be paying more.

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Well I pretty much agree with you fundamentally. As I said earlier, you could address the issue of those without insurance by explicitly denying any coverage, but that will never fly. I think there are very few people who don't need insurance because they can afford anything that might happen to them -- otherwise, everyone will incur medical costs in some manner.

The insurance companies need to be regulated and I'm completely in favor of a public option. Even the health care exchange will create more opportunities and abolish the current regional monopoly that the parent companies own. Prices are high because I think the majority of people only have one or two companies to choose from.

In addition, the act also provides benefits that favors us citizens. Now you can be a dependent up until the age of 26, insurers cannot deny coverage to children with pre-existing conditions, preventive care (e.g. colonoscopy, mammograms, etc.) is covered, and lots of other good things have come out of this.

What about the people who dont use insurance, because they dont need it? I dont see any difference between those with insurance paying extra for those who get services without having the ability to pay, and everyone paying more for those who dont have the ability to pay. There are other options in regards to your provision as well, like charitable organizations, state and local governments, friends and family, and even charitable care by the hospitals and doctors. Imo, the main reason healthcare is so expensive is because of the insurance companies, now you want to force everyone to have to buy health insurance, there is no way this will bring down healthcare costs, except for the few who couldnt qualify because of pre-existing conditions. Every one else will be paying more.


Reminds me of the old saying relating to motorcycles. "there are two people who ride motorcycles, those who have had accidents and those who will have them".

Everyone needs health insurance it's just that many either don't realize it and by the time they do it will be too late and they will be in bankruptcy court or they have "good" health insurance now and it seems to be good for the minor stuff they have used it for but one day they will discover it ain't what they thought it was and will be totally cleaned out financially.

To force people to become beggars may be music to the ears of most libertarians but hopefully we live in a society with more compassion than that.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

To force people to become beggars may be music to the ears of most libertarians but hopefully we live in a society with more compassion than that.

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Maybe we can get some beggars to fund it for us. Hey, how about Congress? They seem to have a knack for coming up with enough IOUs to fund just about anything

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Imo, the main reason healthcare is so expensive is because of the insurance companies, now you want to force everyone to have to buy health insurance, there is no way this will bring down healthcare costs, except for the few who couldnt qualify because of pre-existing conditions. Every one else will be paying more.

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Well that's a notion I disagree with, and it's also important to determine whether you think the price of just insurance will go up, or the total cost of health care (insurance + out-of-pocket) for an individual. Let's just say that your plan prices did go up, you'd still then have much more coverage as far as preventive care and other points I mentioned upthread.

IMO, the reason health care is so expensive is because it can be. Since most providers have little regional competition, employers and individuals are at their mercy. The heath care exchange looks to fix this by offering plans on a national level, and the open competition should lead to lower prices and better service. Companies also had the ability to deny or drop people from coverage; meaning that the more health care you needed, the more of a financial risk you were, and the more hoops you'd have to jump through to get reimbursed. Charge the healthy, drop the sick.

There's another reason healthcare is expensive.....it's because it costs lots of money!

The machines that hospitals buy cost SOO MUCH money. Same goes for the hours they have to pay their doctors who often work round the clock, same goes for nurses, locations, housing, cleaning, etc etc etc. I can tell you from the point of view of someone who studied for it that providing such healthcare and facilitating it is simply a very expensive process. No matter WHO does it or how much competition there is.

When everyone is paying a little bit all the time those costs can become affordable. That's where insurance comes in. However if insurance starts screwing around with profit margins etc....that's when the feces hit the rotating blades.

Health care will never become cheap through competition. There's too much research, developement and contstant preparedness in case something happens for that. The upkeep for such a process is simply expensive.

Insurance however can take something like that and make it at least something that won't bankrupt a person when they need it though....if done right.

This is a country of free speech....for the sake of this thread fair enough.This forum allows for that .....fair enough.I have been reading all the debate here and have concluded in my own mind that this was not a wise idea for a thread as all it has seemed to do is polarize everybody(Just my puny worthless opinion) .This is a shaving forum...primarily anyway.It's supposed to be(or at least for me it is)a refuge away from the political turmoil of the outside world.As stated,true enough in this section you can bring up discussion of all types.But was this wise? I wonder.Say what ya want,but I'm betting that people here have now subconsciously made opinions of each other thanks to this. Sooner or later this mess is going to be decided upon in a court once and for all......maybe.The lines are drawn and all we can really do is wait for the outcome,good,bad,or whatever.For those who don't feel affected by this thread in any way,that's all good.Sometimes we pose discussions without even thinking of the consequences.sometimes we think it's just an innocent harmless debate with no foresight of how people will be affected.But it does affect people(Yeah,I suppose it affected me).Everyone here is a gentleman and helps each other out with wonderfully silly things like what soap to use and how to fix a blade.Or what's yer favorite food or pipe tobacco ....y'know silly frivolous things like that.Things that make ya forget for a little while what a mad house this world is.I think about politics every day.I think about where I will be in the next year.will I be oppressed or happy?will I be homeless or not?will it be that maybe the country I live in will be in some sort of surreal revolution? It's happened before .It's happened in other countries that call themselves civil...ized .It's happening now.I see the news every where I turn.I think about it all the frappin time....DAILY. You guys are a good bunch.....but was this wise ? Have a good debate fellas,Goodnight and God bless..whatever God you choose to worship. :o

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Originally Posted by Nightblade

This is a country of free speech....for the sake of this thread fair enough.This forum allows for that .....fair enough.I have been reading all the debate here and have concluded in my own mind that this was not a wise idea for a thread as all it has seemed to do is polarize everybody(Just my puny worthless opinion) .This is a shaving forum...primarily anyway.It's supposed to be(or at least for me it is)a refuge away from the political turmoil of the outside world.

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SRP does have guidelines on posting political and/or controversial topics. Site staff always keeps a close eye on these types of threads and as long as it stays topical and clear of any obvious personal attacks, we leave it be.

I'm not saying this or that how you should take care for your health care system there, as it is really not up to us who don't live there. For what i've read your system is expensive and not everyone is covered.

This is strange. Public health care system in EU is relatively cheap and works very well. Everyone is covered and it doesn't really matter if it is public or private clinics who do the job.

However i have volunteer health care insurance from the private insurance company for me and my family. It is not better but in some non urgent cases it is much faster to use private insurance. That allows me to walk in any private health station and it will take care of whatever issue i might have. I pay nominal fee of €20 per visit and private insurance company pays the rest. Private insurance costs about 150 €/year for me and about €500 for my whole family. Someone is making money there on your health.

This has nothing to do with your constitution of course.

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Originally Posted by commiecat

IMO, the reason health care is so expensive is because it can be. Since most providers have little regional competition, employers and individuals are at their mercy.

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I agree completely. Last year, Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina (where I live) reported PROFITS of $107.3 million--and they're chartered as a not-for-profit company. Yet every year for the last several years we've been treated to the spectacle of the company's former CEO campaigning to be allowed to change the company to for-profit, claiming it was necessary in order to remaion "competitive." They also lobby annually for premium increases for the same reason. Riiight. I thought the whole point of "not for profit" was that at the end of the fiscal year, you wind up with a zero balance sheet. Seems to me that a company such as BCBSNC ought to be plowing some of that $107.3 million into reducing premiums and copays. Instead, it goes for executive bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Sailor

This has nothing to do with your constitution of course.

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The Constitution is brought up over a specific cause in the reform act which states that citizens are charged a fee of ~ $97USD/yr if they choose not to have an insurance plan. There are a few exceptions, but basically we will have to buy a plan or pay the annual fee. Some judges are saying that this clause is unconstitutional and the recent event is that one judge went so far as to say that the entire reform act should be repealed because of this clause.

Right now if you need medical attention, you can get it regardless of citizenship and/or your ability to pay for treatment. Public hospitals cannot deny someone emergency care, and while there are a few hospitals excluded from the actual mandate, I believe all of them still follow it. The annual fee in the health care act was designed to help encourage people to get insurance while also helping to recover the cost of treating people without it.