A Health Care Scenario

**riooso** · 10-29-2009, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by DPflaumer

That's the real issue, American government programs. Seems to work just fine in a lot of other countries, we are just too greedy as a nation.

Better check again. Taxation in Europe is unbelievable. Britian's system is going broke and in order to save money they "manage" costs which is where the problems start. It does not take a genius to think that in order to spend money on a small child or an old guy it would go something like this....."Does the 91 year old really need a prostate operation he will be dead in a couple of years anywhere" "Operation denied". They are not bad people just people with their backs against the wall who don't have a choice of taxing the people anymore than they already do. How much tax is enough? 80%, 90%? Eventually people will just refuse to go to work. They will revolt. There is a brain drain from Europe already, you have to ask yourself, why? What would make a young person leave their birthplace? That is a hard thing to do, there must be a reason.

I wish we could come up with at real solution, like Tort reform and cutting all the laywers and greedy politicians out of the loop. That....is the real problem.

Take Care,
Richard

**honedright** · 10-29-2009, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by gugi

Because people are irresponsbile and selfish. The risk of being stuck with high medical risk is rather low for a young person so they don't feel like subsidizing the old and ill who use more medical services than they pay for in insurance.

Because many people like responsibility only when it refers to others, or if it's just talk, but when it costs them something it's a different story.

You are contradicting yourself.

**flyboy** · 10-29-2009, 07:45 PM

Here is the WHO (world health organization) ranking of the health care in different countries:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei

For some reason it seems like the countries that have the "four year" education (it is six-six and a half in Norway) scores all over higher than the "six years plus a bunch of stuff before and after" system.
Is there really any need for a MD to make 500.000 a year? So what if they just made 150.000? It is not like thay would have to take the bus to work anyway.. And would it really hurt them to step down from driving a Porche to a Lexus?
Health care is three times as expensive in the US as in other countries with similar income. The ironic part is that the countries with similar income most likely scores higher on quality of health care.
Don't get me wrong, I love the US, but this entire health care debate has ****ed me off a bit lately: of course it is ok to debate wether or not ot is good for the US to get universal health care, but why is it such a big thing to talk so much about how bad it is in Europe, when it really works a lot better?

**honedright** · 10-29-2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by treydampier

Suppose Tom leaves high school and decides to go play baseball at a private university because he has an academic and athletic partial scholarship. Four years later he graduates with honors and has acquired roughly $20K in debt for a 100K education (I'd say thats a good deal). Then he decides to go to medical school and works up $250K in debt. Lets even go so far and say he wants to be a surgeon with 5 years of training where the interest on his loan of which only $100K is in low interest (<3%) and he ends up finishing his training with roughly $310K in debt.

So he decides to be a true doctor (Interesting concept. A true doctor? Not a false one?) and work in a rural setting where docs are needed. In his first year he bills $150K in unpaid medicaid and medicare fees and private insurance. He then does over $300K in indigent (immigrant, uninsured or otherwise) work for which he receives nothing.
Now, he works hard and has billed over $1,000,000 in revenue in his first year. By the time he pays his taxes for his business, his personnel, his malpractice, his rent, office costs, and everything else he makes a grand $150K form which he has to pay a mortgage, taxes, and school loans.(There is no guarantee that just because someone chooses a career as a medical doctor, financial success will follow.)

Why is it fair that the doctor goes to school and training for 13 years after high school and has to work for the government (Don't work for the government. Run a cash only practice and be happy that you are helping people. Accept what you are given and live accordingly. Or, choose a different profession.)

Why is it wrong for the doctor to expect payment just like the plumber gets paid when he is called, or the electrician, or better yet your mortgage company? (It's not wrong. Only those who are trying to get something for nothing would think so.)

I want to know why a student feels like its ok not to have health coverage when schools provide options for it (they have too legally at all ages) and then complains about the bills when they get sick? (Some people, especially the young, have been conditioned to complain and whine. Not surprising in an age of "victimization.")

When did the US people start thinking everything should be free, (Probably about the time of the Roosevelt admin in the 30's) and if healthcare everywhere else is better, why don't the people who don't want to work or pay their bills or healthcare leave to other countries with free healthcare? (That should be a big clue. Health care is not better elsewhere - just the statistics.)

I think docs everywhere, especially the pediatricians who get screwed, should make at least $500K/year.(Why? You earn what you earn.)

I think the hospitals should be able to deny care to illegal aliens unless they agree to pay something (even if its a quarter). Why not demand responsibility. (Exactly. It's certainly demanded of responsible citizens.)

Why not let docs set a fee schedule and require insurance to pay for it, or else be unable to cover health? (If you choose to be a subscriber, or panel doctor, you accept what the insurer is contracting for reimbursement. You don't like their schedule, go elsewhere. Or, cash practice. Ask why you went into the healing profession - to heal, or make money?)

Why can a doctor not tell a CEO of an insurer that he demands everything he has in order to treat his disease since the insurance companies have been making billions and yet their pay scales have continued to decrease the past 10 years? (For the same reason you don't want someone from another profession coming into your office telling you how to run your business regardless of your financial successes.)

I got angry after seeing a 23 year old recent college grad say he shouldn't have to buy health insurance and yet he shouldn't have to pay for healthcare either. (They're really both the same. There are some with very childish minds waiting for the adults to pay the bills.) Is this really the road the US is headed? (Currently it is. But I believe common sense will prevail and the nonsense will stop.) The scenario above is an example of a friend of mine who just finished a surgical residency and now works in rural Mississippi.
I want responses both for and against because although I am not and Obama fan (Good, that means you have the ability to think for yourself.) he at least told the companies owing TARP money that they couldn't pay out obscene bonuses. (By what authority???)

Cheers!

**gugi** · 10-29-2009, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by honedright

You are contradicting yourself.

Really? Your assertion is false. If you disagree the burden of proof is on you, since you were the one to make it (hint: logic operations come in handy).

Here's a good reference:

Originally Posted by merriam-webster

Main Entry: con·tra·dic·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌkän-trə-ˈdik-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : act or an instance of contradicting
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other
3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another

**Navaja** · 10-29-2009, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by flyboy

Don't get me wrong, I love the US, but this entire health care debate has ****ed me off a bit lately: of course it is ok to debate wether or not ot is good for the US to get universal health care, but why is it such a big thing to talk so much about how bad it is in Europe, when it really works a lot better?

Obviously you don't know how it works in Spain, because their HCS really sucks, almost like not having anything. I've lived there and have family living there. That's how I know.

**MichaelP** · 10-29-2009, 08:03 PM