Thread: A Health Care Scenario

Originally Posted by riooso

Better check again. Taxation in Europe is unbelievable. Britian's system is going broke and in order to save money they "manage" costs which is where the problems start. It does not take a genius to think that in order to spend money on a small child or an old guy it would go something like this....."Does the 91 year old really need a prostate operation he will be dead in a couple of years anywhere" "Operation denied".

Unlike America where a teenager got denied treatment this year because a liver transplant was considered "new and experimental" by her health insurance (it had a 65% chance of saving her life). Or is it OK if it is a private industry bureaucrat that denies the coverage based on financial incentives?

Originally Posted by riooso

They are not bad people just people with their backs against the wall who don't have a choice of taxing the people anymore than they already do. How much tax is enough? 80%, 90%?

At this point, my tax and benefits burden is roughly 20% of my income. I am in the 2nd from top tax bracket for the country where I work. That is before my tax returns, which are usually a 13th month worth thanks to my mortgage, my extra pension plan, my life insurance, my extra health insurance and few other long term planning measures.

Realistically, yes the European system is far from perfect. Ask any European citizen if they would like to improve it, you'll get a yes. Ask if they would like to trade it with the US system, you'll get a resounding "Hell no!".

Originally Posted by riooso

Eventually people will just refuse to go to work. They will revolt.

There is an equal chance of it happening in the US in the very near future. Put simply, the middle class got reamed in the last few years... people just haven't realized how much yet.

Originally Posted by riooso

There is a brain drain from Europe already, you have to ask yourself, why? What would make a young person leave their birthplace? That is a hard thing to do, there must be a reason.

You may need to check the most recent figures indicating a reverse brain drain. Indians and Chinese graduates are currently fleeing the US to get back home... Most of my friends that used to work in the valley or in other big tech centers are now back in Europe.

Originally Posted by riooso

I wish we could come up with at real solution, like Tort reform and cutting all the laywers and greedy politicians out of the loop. That....is the real problem.

There are easy solutions to reduce the costs while improving the quality of healthcare. Some are so simple that it is laughable that they are not implemented yet. Check out Dr. Peter Pronovost's work to see how ludicrous the situation currently is.

Summary of his work:
When inserting an central venous catheter, doctors should

1. Wash their hands with soap.
2. Clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic.
3. Put sterile drapes over the entire patient.
4. Wear a sterile mask, hat, gown and gloves.
5. Put a sterile dressing over the catheter site

An 18 months trial in Michigan saved an estimated 1500 lives and $100 millions to the state. The secondary infections went 2.7 per 1000 patients to 0.

For reference, secondary infections cause about 100,000 deaths a year in America.

Tell me why such a simple protocol isn't already the standard in America in the 21th century when it has been the norm in other industrialized countries for ages? When such simple, efficient and free solutions are the norm, maybe we can talk about Tort/Liability reform.

Originally Posted by MichaelP

Unlike America where a teenager got denied treatment this year because a liver transplant was considered "new and experimental" by her health insurance (it had a 65% chance of saving her life). Or is it OK if it is a private industry bureaucrat that denies the coverage based on financial incentives?



At this point, my tax and benefits burden is roughly 20% of my income. I am in the 2nd from top tax bracket for the country where I work. That is before my tax returns, which are usually a 13th month worth thanks to my mortgage, my extra pension plan, my life insurance, my extra health insurance and few other long term planning measures.

Realistically, yes the European system is far from perfect. Ask any European citizen if they would like to improve it, you'll get a yes. Ask if they would like to trade it with the US system, you'll get a resounding "Hell no!".



There is an equal chance of it happening in the US in the very near future. Put simply, the middle class got reamed in the last few years... people just haven't realized how much yet.



You may need to check the most recent figures indicating a reverse brain drain. Indians and Chinese graduates are currently fleeing the US to get back home... Most of my friends that used to work in the valley or in other big tech centers are now back in Europe.



There are easy solutions to reduce the costs while improving the quality of healthcare. Some are so simple that it is laughable that they are not implemented yet. Check out Dr. Peter Pronovost's work to see how ludicrous the situation currently is.

Summary of his work:
When inserting an central venous catheter, doctors should

1. Wash their hands with soap.
2. Clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic.
3. Put sterile drapes over the entire patient.
4. Wear a sterile mask, hat, gown and gloves.
5. Put a sterile dressing over the catheter site

An 18 months trial in Michigan saved an estimated 1500 lives and $100 millions to the state. The secondary infections went 2.7 per 1000 patients to 0.

For reference, secondary infections cause about 100,000 deaths a year in America.

Tell me why such a simple protocol isn't already the standard in America in the 21th century when it has been the norm in other industrialized countries for ages? When such simple, efficient and free solutions are the norm, maybe we can talk about Tort/Liability reform.

Not to be critical, but your facts are very ambiguous. ALL transplants US are covered under medicare (including heart, lung, liver, kidney, pancreas). The hospital care etc, might need some private insurance, but the transplant surgeons only get paid through medicare, so your story is at best jaded. I know several transplant surgeons if you would like for me to have them contact you and tell you the truth. One happens to be of German birth and works for the University of Wisconsin. Also your implement plan is in place at every hospital I have worked in. Its actually an OSHA standard, and yet some people don't do their homework and read studies by Michigan and conclude that they are the only ones following this protocol. So you need to know what your saying before you think no one else is doing these things.
Just my opinion. I do however admit, that there are many people who do not follow this simple protocol, but it is in place. Also, yes the list was in fact published by WHO, I guess they are the best authority on something, just not my personal health concerns.

Lets not get heated people, keep it friendly!

Originally Posted by treydampier

Not to be critical, but your facts are very ambiguous. ALL transplants US are covered under medicare (including heart, lung, liver, kidney, pancreas). The hospital care etc, might need some private insurance, but the transplant surgeons only get paid through medicare, so your story is at best jaded. I know several transplant surgeons if you would like for me to have them contact you and tell you the truth. One happens to be of German birth and works for the University of Wisconsin.

I will take your word for it, however the case is quite famous. I actually made a mistake about the date it was denied in 2007 and she died in December 2007.