Thread: Heroes For Gods?

Originally Posted by norman931

What about the religious folk who believe that God is love and that we are to love and do good to everybody, even those who hate us? There are, I think, quite a few of us.

Are you looking for some sort of judgement?

Do you feel that you are right and everyone who believes differently is wrong?

Originally Posted by ChrisL

This is interesting, the way you put it. I never thought of it that way. Based on that argument then, could it also be argued that an athiest or nihilist would regard life as the quintessence of preciousness since that's all they have?

Sorry, your post just got me thinking out loud.

Chris L

sure you could argue that, and I would be getting way off topic to continue, but you can't really place any meaningful moral boundaries on anyone else's behavior.

I was just reading the last post Ice... I am trying to think of a way to imagine someone who doesn't think he or she has it right, and others have it wrong (religious or otherwise). Atheists think they are right, and often cite atrocities committed by "believers" as justifying evidence for their beliefs. The religious believe that they have found truth and others have not yet encountered it.

Even in our daily actions, don't we think that we are acting in the right way most of the time while others may be making mistakes? We know the right way to raise our kids and others don't etc.

Other than that, there may be a few (like aristotle) who believe that true knowledge is in knowing that you know nothing... and at that point, who is to say if it is right to kill in the name of a God that may or may not exist?

Originally Posted by Del1r1um

You could also argue that for a true atheist (or nihilist), it really doesn't matter if people are killing or being killed, regardless of the motive. Even the socially constructed morality is pointless in the end, once your eyes close for the last time.

An Atheist is NOT a nihilist. Athiests believe there is no God. Nihilists? Zey belief in nussink, Lebovski!

I know good people and I know bad people, and I don't think religion or lack thereof has made ANY DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER in their goodness or badness. I've seen people who go to church every Sunday and put their money in the plate and sing the hymns and then go home and beat their wives for burning supper (hell, I've known PREACHERS who've done it). I've known athiests who treat everyone around them with respect and grace, and would rather die than hurt those around them.

I have seen absolutely nothing to convince me that what a person believes about magic-dad-in-the-sky has any correlation whatsoever to their moral worth.

Moral athiests exist, just as immoral Christians/Buddhists/Moslems/Jews et al. ad infinitum. Moral athiests belive, in their very bones, what many Christians only quote: do unto others what you would have them do unto you. We just don't need the threat of hellfire to make us be moral.

My wife is a "fake" Buddhist (her own words...she goes to temple and prays, but she doesn't actually think about attaining nirvana or suchlike). She knows squat all about Christ or God, and she is as good, honest and moral a person as I know. My sister, who is a born again Christian and has been for years, has completely abandoned her family and has had lifelong problems with drugs, alcohol and promiscuity. She lies, steals, and more.

Just a drop in the bucket.

If you think you need God to make you moral, you aren't a very moral person.

I think Mono-theism breeds intolerance. We need more gods... & female ones too

Jimmy hit the nail on the head there. That passage links to my point that it doesnt say anywhere in religious texts to hurt others.

What I cant understand is why religion has caused more wars, more death and more pain than any other thing in the history of humanity. Its the been the cause of all these things and a divider of man rather than a solution to problems and a unifier of man.

Besides which, the notion of killing in the name of God is a total oxymoron. I challenge anyone to show me a passage in ANY religious book where it explicitly states that those who do not follow that particular doctrine are sub human/infidels/animals or whatever, and that therefore there should be a holy war to wipe them out.

I said on the other Ft Hood thread that I dont think religion is anything more than guidance on how to live your life, to get on with your fellow man and spiritual counselling at difficult times. Once you take it to an extreme, its just as bad and no different to any other form of extremism, be it nazism or communism.

Originally Posted by Del1r1um

I was just reading the last post Ice... I am trying to think of a way to imagine someone who doesn't think he or she has it right, and others have it wrong (religious or otherwise). Atheists think they are right, and often cite atrocities committed by "believers" as justifying evidence for their beliefs. The religious believe that they have found truth and others have not yet encountered it.

Even in our daily actions, don't we think that we are acting in the right way most of the time while others may be making mistakes? We know the right way to raise our kids and others don't etc.

Other than that, there may be a few (like aristotle) who believe that true knowledge is in knowing that you know nothing... and at that point, who is to say if it is right to kill in the name of a God that may or may not exist?

The way I see it is that it might be better for the general population, the citizens of Earth if any relationship one may feel they have with any supreme being is kept as a private affair between those two. I feel it would behoove the people of the planet if somehow we learned to look at a much bigger picture as neighbors and co-dependants of our only planet and be willing to abandon all devotion to any omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god and leave our attitudes of cultural and spiritual superiority at the door. In other words, I personally believe that as everyone can't possibly be right, it is more likely that everyone is wrong. I believe that if there is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being somehow holding the strings, there is no logical reason to practice any sort of activity designed to flatter this god. In fact, it is actually counter productive. I'll explain why.

Let's just for the sake of the argument allow for the existence of an omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (everywhere all the time) being (let's abbreviate and call this supreme being the OOO). So if the OOO has created you and me and everyone else, as the OOO is infallible, all things are in a sense, perfect. If the OOO has made everyone then it would have no reason to be vain and seek or even appreciate any practices of worship. If the OOO has any concern for what we as its most active handiwork do at all is it would probably not want us undoing its efforts by killing one another. It would be a very childish supreme being that would call for one group of its craftsmanship to harbor any hate or malice toward any other group of its craftsmanship.

I believe there is no such being. I believe we are (unfortunately) as supreme as the beings on Earth are going to get. I believe that we should admit (at very least) the possibility that we have been wrong, all along and we should toss our cultural and spiritual devotions over the side save for those portions that would tend to draw us together as one large group (like music, fashions, art and recipes). I believe we would be infinitely better if we eliminated devotion to any OOO (who clearly doesn't need any help) and become completely devoted to helping one another and coexisting in peaceful harmony.

I couldn't agree with you more icedog. I know a lot of people hate hearing it, but contrary to popular belief, I didn't need a book about a magic guy in the sky who needs all my money to make me a moral person. I can count on one hand the number of times I have been to church with my parents. Know how many fingers are up? 0.

That being said, I go to college in South Carolina, land of the Baptist. I can honestly say that I am a much more moral person than the majority of the people I know who attend church at least once a week, donate money, and spend their time judging others for believing differently than them.

I have no issue with jews, catholics, buddhists, muslims, christians, anything. My one request is that you please keep your religion to yourself. I'm not interested in being converted. I'm not interested in being told I'm going to hell.

Telling an Atheist he is going to Hell is like telling a Diabetic he is going to Candyland. Scary, if they believed in it.

On atheism and nihilism...

What amuses me highly is that morals are often attributed to religion, by religious people. I think the existence of morals is not connected to religion at all. The influence of religion on morals, in any sense, is clear though.

edit: With Jim up there.

As a newcomer to the forum I'm surprised to see this discussion.

I have no wish to attack anyone's deeply held beliefs. They have the same freedom as I do to think and decide for themselves what they believe to be true.

I asked myself this question: Was the universe created by a being conscious of what it was doing and able to control all that followed and is?

I find it impossible to answer yes. So I live a happy and peaceful life. And know I am very lucky.