Thread: Do we have a responsibility to buy new razors?

I very regularly hone razors for other people. Often those are almost new razors. Mostly Dovo's, occasionally Thiers Issards, rarely Wackers, and twice so far a Maestro Livi.
Test shaving them all, there is something I peculiarly like about the edges I can put on the TI's, but that's a personal preference. Yet I do not own a TI, because I am not willing to spend that amount of money on tool of which I already own more than I use. (about a dozen). That too is a personal preference.

I also find it hard to buy vintage razors, for a price that I am willing to spend, in a condition that puts them in the same class as a new one. I am not talking about a bit of corrosion, because that can be fixed in most cases. I am talking about the amount of steel that is missing from most vintage razors, vanished through years of careful honing jobs.
Those razors still shave very well, but there just is something extra in a high quality razor, still in the prime of its life, without being honed down to the belly of the grind. You can find that in NOS vintage razors, or you can buy new ones. It comes with a price. In the case of new ones that price is justified by labor costs, social protection (I am glad to live in the EU) and the rules of a free market. Otherwise you can buy Gold Dollar razors. Allegedly they're nice too. Ebay sellers of NOS razors don't have production costs, they're just lucky to cash in on the inflation of an object that was produced several decades ago.

I disagree with the notion that today's production is of lesser quality than what we call vintage. Philharmonica ceased production and a few years later, prices have gone up and people are talking in superlatives about them. I don't think so. They're as good as when they were still in production. The same thing counts for Puma, Dorko and all the other famous brands. Why do it always seem the "best" brands that went out of production?

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

I disagree with the notion that today's production is of lesser quality than what we call vintage. Philharmonica ceased production and a few years later, prices have gone up and people are talking in superlatives about them. I don't think so. They're as good as when they were still in production. The same thing counts for Puma, Dorko and all the other famous brands. Why do it always seem the "best" brands that went out of production?

Best regards,
Bart.

Because they didn't sacrifice their quality just to stay in business

There are plenty vintage brands I don't like either, make no mistakes. There are a handful of old Sheffield brands that I like, and no German ones.

Razor manufacturers dropped like flies, not so long ago. Dovo had already decided to close down their manufacturing when that last US order came in. They decided to accept it sinc the machines were still there, and then afterwards there were some more orders which they accepted as well, since they had the machines going, and then there were some more, and they kept on making them.

TI probably has a similar story.
What made Dovo and TI survive in this business was luck. Had that US order gone to TI, Dovo would perhaps have folded their razor business.

EDIT: Another point worth mentioning: apart from the perceived quality issues, one of the major reasons I don't like new manufacture, is that fact that I like the shape of the old sheffield blades, with a smile and flowing curves. German razors tend to be really straight, and boring in design.

It's all about the quality of the product. If they put out a good product and have good management they will succeed. My TI came with a warped blade so I will never buy a TI again. I was unimpressed with my Dovo. Almost every vintage blade I have have been superb. The old timers just knew how to mass produce Straights that were good quality. The custom blade makers of today have no problem selling their products because of high quality. The Mastro Livi dynasty should last for many generations because of high quality. I am not loyal to home town, home state or home country if the company puts out a sloppy product. It's time to put in an order for a couple more customs.

bj

I don't think any one has a repsonsibility to buy any product or to support any business. I don't think that means you should always buy the cheapest or always buy online or what ever but I think you need to take in the complete package you get with any item or service and decide whether or not you think you got a good deal.

An obvious thing with new razors is they're new, for a lot of people this is very important in terms of how they percieve the value of something.

I currently own one dovo, that I traded for another dovo I bought off ebay for not a lot of money, I think something like $8 posted, maybe less. Go figure!

Incidently, I think it's a fantastic razor, but I think all my others are too. Would I have bought one new? Not a chance, too much money for me!

No, I dont think we have a responsibility to buy new razors.

That said, I only own new razors! Two DOVO's and a Boker at the moment, and I'm looking to get a Wacker next. That said, I do have an old microtome that I use occasionally...

I do want to get a few vintage razors though, particularly some of the old W&B meat choppers..! I love 'em..!

Then again, I do agree with the points that people have made about QC issues. I was tempted to get a TI recently, but having read the problems that people have had with them I've decided to give them a miss for now. I'm just not prepared to pay £200 - £300 for a razor that has dodgy scales on it, and I dont care how good the blade is.

If you bought a Ferrari and the doors wouldnt close properly so you went to the dealers with the problem and they said "Yeah, but its got a great engine...", would you be happy? Thought not..!

I'll pay good money for a razor I like if its made well. If it has faults it'll be going back to the dealer to get sorted out, be it new or vintage.

So really what I'm getting at is that we have a responsibility to buy good quality razors, be they new or vintage. And to give feedback to the sellers if the quality isnt up to snuff.

Originally Posted by red96ta

There are literally hundreds of thousands (or more) completely serviceable razors laying around the world waiting to be used. But the question is, with the world having pretty much completely walked away from straight razors, do we have a responsibility to support the precious few makers we have left?

I say, yes we do, the contemporary makers do make a great product at what I would call a completely reasonable price. Don't get me wrong, I'm still buying up the vintage units as I find them, but I also support the makers.

Absolutely not, and I dispute your assertion that new razors can be had at a reasonable price. There is no reason a new razor with a quality carbon steel blade and plain plastic scales should cost more than 20-30 dollars.

Originally Posted by fccexpert

There is no reason a new razor with a quality carbon steel blade and plain plastic scales should cost more than 20-30 dollars.

I don't think so. A typical worker in a EU company costs the firm minimum 20 euro (at the current rate that's about $30) for one hour work. That does not include the costs for the tools and machinery he uses, heating the building, insurances, etc... It also does not include profit and the wages for the employees that do not directly produce the goods, such as the management and the company administration. And then there's the reseller who tries to make a living as well.
I think prices of EU produced razor, reflect that quite well.

Of course, in China, the land of the Double Arrow and the Gold Dollar, they currently have a cost structure that's only a fraction of what it is in the EU (and in the US, I guess). They don't exactly have the same safety regulations and social protection either.

In US, there's the HART razor. Many have been complaining about the price of that one. But do we honestly believe someone is trying to get rich real soon on that project? I don't think so. I think they don't have the money to invest in time saving machinery, which makes their production pretty labor-intensive. Which brings us back to labor costs.

Do we need to support all that?
Let's put it this way. If you are not prepared to pay a reasonable price for the items you own, don't be surprised that in the long run, no one will be prepared to pay a reasonable wage for the work you do.

Bart.

Answer to the original question:

I'm not responsible about what I do with my own hard-earned money to anyone but my wife. She's the only one that I MUST take into account (because I think so and because we have an agreement called a marriage) when spending. Anyone else, no responsibility.

Originally Posted by Bart

I don't think so. A typical worker in a EU company costs the firm minimum 20 euro (at the current rate that's about $30) for one hour work. That does not include the costs for the tools and machinery he uses, heating the building, insurances, etc... It also does not include profit and the wages for the employees that do not directly produce the goods, such as the management and the company administration. And then there's the reseller who tries to make a living as well.
I think prices of EU produced razor, reflect that quite well.

True to some extent, BUT Robert Williams can make me a custom, doing every step along the way himself, manually, with the end result being near perfection, for a couple hundred dollars.

A mass manufacturer like DOVO or TI, using modern methods for mass heat treatment and smithing, should be able to compete with that. The fact that many of their razors are more expensive and (from the handful I've handled) less well made indicates to me that they are underperforming, and getting very high margins.

I've also noticed that the same mammoth ivory scaled dovo cost 600 pounds in the UK, 600 euro in Belgium, and 600 dollar in the US. So I think it is fair to say that a big part of the cost are high margins, and not manufacturing related.

To prove Bruno's point, if you search youtube for the clip of the DOVO manufacturing process you can see how quickly they make a batch of razors, and how fast they churn them out.

I do think that a large part of the cost is high margins, which they justify because its a speciality product.