Thread: History is the Memory of States

Originally Posted by leadduck

Sorry, I didn't mean to disregard the entire book. Not having read it, I'm not qualified to do that, nor can I think of any book I've read with which I totally agree or disagree. I was simply pointing out that because a report is madeby one who witnessed it, does not guarantee it's accuracy.

No apology necessary. Your point is perfectly valid, but by the same argument, neither can the history we get in school texts be guaranteed accurate.

I say, we got one side of the story growing up. Biased for sure. Maybe we ought to get a biased story from the other side. Then we can meet in the middle. It doesn't seem like there is an unbiased, objective history book. If there is, I'd buy it for my kids.

Originally Posted by treydampier

If you also want to read a good historical book, pick up 1776 by David McCullough.

+1 for the recommendation. An excellent companion piece is David Hackett Fischer's Washington's Crossing.

For history buffs an enjoyable read is Plain Speaking an oral biography of Harry S. Truman by Merle Miller. I was reminded of it when Trey said that the winners write the history. President Truman said the same thing. He, being from Independence, Missouri, considered Quantrill and his raiders heroes while popular history portrays them as bloodthirsty villains.

Speaking of Columbus day parades brings to mind the FBI building with the scoundrel who served as it's director's name on it. I guess J.Edgar Hoover didn't commit atrocities to the level of Columbus but IMO there is something wrong with his name being on the building. YMMV.

My first realization that we weren't always the 'good guys' in the white hats came from reading Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee by Dee Brown. If we Americans were to discover the USA now the Lakota, Cheyenne, Crow, Cherokee, Chiricahua, Navaho, Seminoles and other tribes would have nothing to fear. Gold, land .... whatever we wouldn't be able to rape, rob, pillage and burn them out the way our forefathers did. PC y'know.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Speaking of Columbus day parades brings to mind the FBI building with the scoundrel who served as it's director's name on it. I guess J.Edgar Hoover didn't commit atrocities to the level of Columbus but IMO there is something wrong with his name being on the building. YMMV.

Pffftt...

Peanuts. Leopold 'Butcher King' the second of Belgium has between 8 and 20 million deaths (not even counting the victims torture and maiming) to his name. A couple of years ago a statue was erected in his honor. We even minted a commemorative coin.

It's only since recently that his sins are acknowledged in school books. Most people today still don't know. Or care. He's leaving Hitler behind in the body count top ten, and most of us don't even know. There is even a name for this phenomenon: 'The Great Forgetting'. Because as soon as he deeded congo (which was his personal property by international treaty) and the proceeds of his enterprises to the state, all citicism was promptly forgotten overnight and not mentioned again.

I guess this sort of thing is of all times. History is made by all parties, but it's the one left standing who writes it down.

Originally Posted by DistortedPenguin

Why the progressive-liberals insist on painting one that vilifies America I have but one idea.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If we Americans were to discover the USA now the Lakota, Cheyenne, Crow, Cherokee, Chiricahua, Navaho, Seminoles and other tribes would have nothing to fear. Gold, land .... whatever we wouldn't be able to rape, rob, pillage and burn them out the way our forefathers did. PC y'know.

No, we wouldn't. We'd just have Donald Trump there with his shiney beads.

All of your points are well taken. The key is I am cynical and do not believe anything in history happened by accident or was specifically planned in the way it happened. However, in the case of slavery, you can not justify it in any way, and I was not trying too. It was wrong then and is wrong now and the slave owners are most likely burning in hell if it exists. The untold story of indentured servants and their plight was in many cases terrible as well, although because most of them were white so the details of their story is left out.
Africa has its problems as does the US, but they were equally as guilty in allowing slavery to happen from their own leaders selling their people. Plus, the fact is very few people owned slaves, but a friend of mine has a 5th grader who was taught that almost every white person in the south owned slaves, which the truth is that less than 1% owned them. Teach the truth, and don't hold any part of the truth back.
There is nothing wrong with teaching young children the idealistic versions of history, but when they get older they should be told the truth, not limited by a steadily growing socialistic government textbook.
Zinn's book is a start and I believe should be used as one of many sources to teach our kids, but his accounts by the "losers" can be misleading when you don't know the story behind the person giving the account.
As Bruno said about the Belgian King, many people do not learn the truth about their leaders. The truth is that Stalin killed over three times the number of people that Hitler killed, the difference is that Stalin was not relatively selective of killing Jews like Hitler and that is why his story is left out for the most part. As to the Americans not helping the Jews in Germany, my question is, What did we owe them? Did the Jewish people from Germany and Europe ever do anything to help us? In truth Hitler was more honest as a politician (ie. didn't drink, was a vegetarian, didn't cheat on his wife etc.) than any other leader in WWII, and plus the people of Germany allowed him to take power and do the things he did. Sweden among other countries protected their Jewish populations but why didn't the Germans protect theirs?
These are questions and points that should be asked and answered when we teach our kids. Atrocities are like diseases. You have to ask why did they occur? Who/what was truly sharing in the blame? What did the people in the atrocity do that caused the hatred and acts against them? And most importantly, What can we do as individuals do to prevent such things to happen to ourselves and how to deal with it when it is happening?
I do not know these answers or any others. Many on this forum are much older, and wiser than myself. Regardless of education that makes their opinion more valid than mine. I just think back about my Grandfather's assessment of great Depression on a farm vs. that of men living in large cities and I see that history is a matter of perspective. I hope everyone here teaches their kids to read the history left out as the thread encourages.
This is my last post in this forum. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Its a great thread and hopefully everyone here learned something because I certainly did.
Thanks,
Trey

Trey,

You certainly haven't been offensive. I think we are in agreement here.

I'm not sure what I hoped to gain in starting this thread other than to ask some questions about the truth versus the nationalist "feelgood" stuff.

To make another stupid analogy, it's like telling your wife you cheated on her versus her finding another woman's underwear stuffed under the mattress. I'm way more ticked that I had to find out for myself.

Take care, brothers of the blade,

Ogie

Originally Posted by treydampier

. Many on this forum are much older, and wiser than myself. Regardless of education that makes their opinion more valid than mine.

Thanks for the kind words Trey.