Thread: Unconstitutional Action and Gun Laws

Originally Posted by fccexpert

Exactly what military grade weapons are you refering to. I hope you do not believe that a semi automatic AR-15 or AK-47 is a military grade weapon, because it is not (they are not assault rifles either). The military version of these rifles (which are true assualt rifles) are either fully automatic or capable of firing multi-round (usually three) bursts with a single pull of the trigger. The ammunition these rifles fire is actually less powerful than many common hunting rounds.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that these weapons with a little knowhow and the right information could easily be converted back to fully auto. As to the killing power of these weapons I would suggest that anyone using these is not trying to take out a target at 1000 metres range.Proberly more like 100 metres, and who needs accuracy and power to kill at 100 metres or less when your on full auto? Basically those weapons were designed to kill people and nothing more, certainly were not made for hunting or sports shooting!

Originally Posted by AussiePostie

Correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that these weapons with a little knowhow and the right information could easily be converted back to fully auto. As to the killing power of these weapons I would suggest that anyone using these is not trying to take out a target at 1000 metres range.Proberly more like 100 metres, and who needs accuracy and power to kill at 100 metres or less when your on full auto? Basically those weapons were designed to kill people and nothing more, certainly were not made for hunting or sports shooting!

Exactly. The right to bear arms is not made for that, either.

Originally Posted by JokiJo

Exactly. The right to bear arms is not made for that, either.

Not made for what? Modifying weapons? Killing people? or hunting? Could you please explain your answer more fully.

Here in the USA full auto weapons can be legally bought and sold. Also silencers and some other exotica that might surprise you. The seller needs a class 3 firearms license which requires jumping through hoops that the ATF (Alcohol,Tobacco and Firearms) sets up. You have to have a storefront .....it cannot be a residential thing if you are a seller.

The buyer has to pay a federal tax on each and every full auto weapon and they are registered with the gov more stringently than non auto firearms. If I'm not mistaken both the buyer and the seller have to agree that ATF can search their premises at will with no notice.

I knew a fellow that owned a small gun shop and he was into collecting full auto weapons. I forget what he said a full auto AR was selling for but it was a lot. He had a couple of AR15s (not 16s) that were worth thousands of dollars.

I've never had any desire to have something that I can empty in seconds. I would rather shoot one round at a time. I once shot a legal 9mm machine gun out at an old landfill when you could still shoot out in the boonies.

Now there are no 'boonies' as there are homes as far out as you can go and discharging a firearm outside of a licensed shooting range is illegal in the whole county. I was out there with a S&W 44 mag with an 8 3/8" barrel. This was in the mid '70s when the "Dirty Harry" magnums were like hen's teeth.

Fellow had a 9mm machine gun and was shooting into the embankment. He wanted to shoot my magnum and allowed me to fire a burst or two from his MG. I couldn't tell you what model it was but I was amazed at how little recoil was felt. Anyhow, I'm a handgun man. No full autos for me or even long guns save for my old Winchester M-97 riot shotgun.

Full auto weapons are another example of the ineffectiveness of gun laws. Since the Kansas City Massacre prompted congress to pass laws regulating the sale and ownership in 1934 you would think that they would be rarely seen in criminal hands but the cocaine cowboys and even the teen gangs in 'the hood' seem to have a steady supply.

Originally Posted by Bruno

While I understand the concept, I think it is unrealistic. The only way to enable a small group of militia men to wage war agains the US government itself would be to arm them with all the high end toys that the military has at its disposal.

So that means there are many groups of people with cruise missiles, lots of high explosives, and (why not) nukes and other things.

We've tried that approach in Europe. Lots of independent armies, armed to the teeth, so that noone would invade the others. Guess what: It didn't work.

It isn't about a small group of militia it is about an entire armed populace, or should be. You don't need cruise missiles, you just need enough small arms to storm the paces where the cruise missiles are stored.

Originally Posted by AussiePostie

Correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that these weapons with a little knowhow and the right information could easily be converted back to fully auto. As to the killing power of these weapons I would suggest that anyone using these is not trying to take out a target at 1000 metres range.Proberly more like 100 metres, and who needs accuracy and power to kill at 100 metres or less when your on full auto? Basically those weapons were designed to kill people and nothing more, certainly were not made for hunting or sports shooting!

You are wrong. It requires knowhow and the right parts, parts which are fairly difficult to machine. If you don't think you need accuracy to kill at a hundred meters, you haven't tried to hit something at a hundred meters. The unskilled always make out that it is easier than it is.

You are right though, they were made for killing, of course hunting is killing too, and these types of guns have proven to be very good at it. The same attributes that make these guns good for killing both people and animals also allow them to clean up in the shooting sports everywhere they are allowed to be used by the rules, so another argument falls into the dust.

Just for the record it is the civilian firearms industry that until quite recently was responsible for testing and bringing to the military attention the greatest technological advances. Everything from today's automatic actions, to optics, to lasers, right on back through brass cartridges to the first multi-shot weapons ,and percussive ignition systems, even including rifled barrels was first tested by civilian marksman in the fields, forests and "streets" before the military's of the world even considered it useful technology.

Originally Posted by AussiePostie

Correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that these weapons with a little knowhow and the right information could easily be converted back to fully auto. As to the killing power of these weapons I would suggest that anyone using these is not trying to take out a target at 1000 metres range.Proberly more like 100 metres, and who needs accuracy and power to kill at 100 metres or less when your on full auto? Basically those weapons were designed to kill people and nothing more, certainly were not made for hunting or sports shooting!

100m is actually quite a long range. Most smallbore .22 rifles are zeroed in for 25 metres in the UK, with some going out to 50 metres. Ok, some target rifles will be used up to 500 - 600m range, but you dont often go more than that unless you're shooting specific competitions.

And most hunting rifles are zeroed in for 50 - 100 metres, and thats using a scope! Deer stalkers often have to get closer than 100m, just because you often cant get a clear line of sight if you're miles away.

In terms of full auto and accuracy, there was a show over here about the AK-47 that Jeremy Clarkson presented. He tried to hit the side of a Ford Transit van on full auto at 10 metres.

Guess how many shots hit the van? None. Thats right. None. The recoil just threw the rounds all over the place.

I've fired the UK forces Light Support Weapon (LSW), which is 5.56mm calibre, from a prone position, with a tripod and SUSAT scope. I was shooting at a target 100m away, and the target was probably a bit smaller than a small car (a Micra or something), sideways on.

Firing three round bursts I managed to hit the target centrally and got a good grouping (probably no more than 4-6"), but on full auto I was all over the place.

And you do need the right tools and skill to convert any weapon. Its not something you can do with a drill and some superglue, thats for sure!

The longest range I ever shot at was 1200m on Stickledown range at Bisley, using iron sights (no scope) and that is really challenging let me tell you! I still managed a darn good score, but I put that down to the hours of practice I used to put in!

Stubear, your last paragraph said everything....practice, practice, practice! For combat, most of it is done in the 50 -150 meter range, so is a lot of deer hunting. Aks are notorious for their accuracy due to the barrel flex which would only get worse on full auto. The 5.56 mm rifles are considerably better on full auto, but its still practice that makes perfect. Even with the full auto option, I would still rather fire on semi for accuracy as well as ammo conservation, although there would be times the "panic button" may be nice.