Thread: Morality and its source

"My mom got drunk on stout,
My dad couldn't stand on two feet,
As he lectured about morality."
Partial lyrics from the song "Sea and Sand" by "The Who"

The above is just a little priming for the thread...

So here I sit, beer in hand, ready to speak of morality, or rather where we derive our morality.


Here is an online dictionary definition of morality:
mo·ral·i·ty (m-rl-t, mô-)
n. pl. mo·ral·i·ties
1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
3. Virtuous conduct.
4. A rule or lesson in moral conduct.




It is the first and third definition that I am mostly concerned with.



I have read that some members here see it as an idea coming from society, Others from their particular brand of religion, some believe there are no such thing as morals. I believe it comes from neither of these.
Assume for a moment that it does come from society as a whole. Society can change its idea of morality at any time. We may wake up one morning after a long sleep finding that our society now deems eating human flesh a prerequisite for high moral standards and sex with ones own relatives the pinnacle of moral standards.
What of religion? There are many to choose from. All have slightly different to radically different ideas as to what morality is. Religion is also a man made construct which means it may also change over time. The idea and belief in a God lends a certain stability to religious morality. This is a good thing, but mans hands are still involved...it will decay in time leaving us again to be so much flotsam and jetsam in the changing tides of man made morality.
If, as some believe, that there is no such thing as morality then that leaves us to do as we please...or for anyone else to do to us as they please. To me, this is not a world I would wish to live in.
My belief is that true morality comes from a deep well within each of us, unchanging and always constant. This well that I speak of is the same well that all mankind has access to. We are all conduits for this well. some choose to deny this well while others embrace it. I also believe this is what Jesus was trying to get across when he said that the kingdom of heaven is within.

Thats my view. How do you see it?

As always, act as gentlemen please.

As I also replied to 59Caddy in the NC thread:

I derive my morals from the simple principle that I treat others as I want to be treated myself. It's amazing how far that one principle will get you.

Would I want people to beat me, kill me, rob me, sell me, discriminate against me, etc?
No. So likewise, I don't do those things to other people. And I didn't need any deity to come to those beliefs. It is perfectly possible to live life by a strong moral compass without ever needing to resort to a deity.

Originally Posted by Bruno

As I also replied to 59Caddy in the NC thread:

I derive my morals from the simple principle that I treat others as I want to be treated myself. It's amazing how far that one principle will get you.

Would I want people to beat me, kill me, rob me, sell me, discriminate against me, etc?
No. So likewise, I don't do those things to other people. And I didn't need any deity to come to those beliefs. It is perfectly possible to live life by a strong moral compass without ever needing to resort to a deity.

But whatever your source for morality, don't you agree that it needs to be consistent and constant?

And to add to that, what about lesser but just as respected morals? such as smoking, drinking, drugs, sex, honesty, diet, dress, treatment of property/animals and others?

Does society or self preservation or instinct control those too?

Yes. And that simple principle is constant and unchanging to me.

What if society deemed driving a car with small children in it were immoral?

What if living in a house made from trees were immoral?
Would you accept that, just as society frowns upon smoking or drinking or wearing fur?

Or is there maybe a deeper drive for good morals despite your beliefs?

There's tons of things deemed immoral in society that aren't bad for your health or others. Yet the constants, such as stuff we know are harmful, we have very strong belief in, whereas the other ones, deemed immoral such as it is by society, we care less about or don't follow at all.

Society as a whole seems to view morality as "do unto others what you don't wish them to do unto you, but do it first"... it is not new, it has been the case throughout history in most civilizations. Even if it declares having higher moral value, society as a whole always finds justifications to go back to that view.

I am normally of the "And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them likewise."... even tho it can be very hard.

Originally Posted by JokiJo

lesser but just as respected morals? such as smoking, drinking, drugs, sex, honesty, diet, dress, treatment of property/animals and others?

Does society or self preservation or instinct control those too?

These aren't necessarily morals but acts that can be either appropriate or harmful depending on the circumstance. Without sex the human race would become extinct, we need to eat and of course there are drugs which prolong life. Dress code, to some degree, depended the climate.
Even honesty, sometimes a completely honest answer may not be entirely helpful, it depends on the situation.
Self-preservation is usually seen as a basic instinct, but there are those that sacrifice their own lives for the good of others.

I think to some degree we are born with the correct instincts and these are further shaped by our upbringing and the society in which we live.

There are those who know how they should behave but choose not to, for a multitude of reasons.

Originally Posted by JMS

...
If, as some believe, that there is no such thing as morality then that leaves us to do as we please...or for anyone else to do to us as they please. To me, this is not a world I would wish to live in.

Very interesting post and I appreciate you gave us some starter thoughts to chew on. Without trying to present a fully-baked treatise on morality in response there is one comment I would like to make about the above.

I don't know if I am reading more into what you said than what you meant, but I do often hear people try to make an argument that is based on what they *want* to be true (or conversely fear to be true) and think that what they want (or don't want) has some bearing on what actually *is*. Arguments of the form "But if that were true(false) think how bad the consequences would be!" are not convincing to me.

I am not trying to say here that there is no such thing as morality, just that simply wishing that there is a true morality leaves one hoping there is a better case to be made!

One further remark. Sometimes looking for the morality of a situation (moral, immoral, amoral) is not a productive point of view. Sometimes one simply needs to deal with what is as opposed to what should or shouldn't be. For example, it might be that self-preservation often trumps morality. Or maybe self preservation is simply a factor that contributes to the moral calculus.

A constant Morality? There is no such thing, not even for people with "religion."

"Thou shalt not kill."

"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)

And "Keep Ye The Sabbath"
"On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day, shall be put to death. You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." (Exodus 35:2-3 NAB)

"Covet Not Thy Neighbor's Wife"
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. "Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT

"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
And, of course, slavery...Immoral, of course, except to Jesus...


Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)


Morality changes, of course.

If you sincerely believe that your morality is a result of Christianity, that Christianity is a source of a moral constant, then ask yourself why, for well on to two thousand years, the Christian church perpetrated things we now universally recognize as immoral: murder, slavery, torture...Even now, Christians can't agree on morality. Catholics believe birth control is immoral, the Episcopalians have gay bishops, and to the Amish, we are ALL immoral!