Thread: America Rising

Some industries do not lend themselves to the free market. Health care is one of them. For the free market to work, certain factors need to exist, such as rational decision making, the availability of accurate information, etc. These things don't exist in medicine - not to mention the fact that the supplier is determining what and how much service is provided. Then, the buyer essentially uses other people's money to pay for what they are told is needed. The current system is too fragmented and uncoordinted, etc, etc. On top of that, we bail out the poor and the elderly with medicaid and medicare. We should either go with a free-market, for profit system and accept that many people will die without government aid - and live with that, or we go with a single payer system. We can't have it both ways.

The system is in a death spiral. It's no longer a matter of covering poor people. Working, middle class folks can no longer afford their insurance and coinsurance/deductibles - or won't be able to in the near future. Nor can their employers. The government makes up half the health care market as it is - so it's not like the government isn't already the biggest player in the game. It shouldn't cost $6K-$7K a year for the average citizen to be cared for. It's the nature of the system that drives these costs. The gov. should be the payer and hire the insurance companies to pay the claims.

Costs are going through the roof every year and available services mean nothing when so few can afford them - even when they have insurance...Those who have the money to get a higher level of care will still have access to it, just as they do now

I'm rambling...

Jordan

Healthcare and the employement enviroment are the only real things keeping me from wanting to move to the states.

I Like the fact that they are calling people communists.

Didn`t you get over that in the early 90`s?

Originally Posted by jnich67

Some industries do not lend themselves to the free market. Health care is one of them. For the free market to work, certain factors need to exist, such as rational decision making, the availability of accurate information, etc. These things don't exist in medicine - not to mention the fact that the supplier is determining what and how much service is provided. Then, the buyer essentially uses other people's money to pay for what they are told is needed. The current system is too fragmented and uncoordinted, etc, etc. On top of that, we bail out the poor and the elderly with medicaid and medicare. We should either go with a free-market, for profit system and accept that many people will die without government aid - and live with that, or we go with a single payer system. We can't have it both ways.

The system is in a death spiral. It's no longer a matter of covering poor people. Working, middle class folks can no longer afford their insurance and coinsurance/deductibles - or won't be able to in the near future. Nor can their employers. The government makes up half the health care market as it is - so it's not like the government isn't already the biggest player in the game. It shouldn't cost $6K-$7K a year for the average citizen to be cared for. It's the nature of the system that drives these costs. The gov. should be the payer and hire the insurance companies to pay the claims.

Costs are going through the roof every year and available services mean nothing when so few can afford them - even when they have insurance...Those who have the money to get a higher level of care will still have access to it, just as they do now

I'm rambling...

Jordan

The NHS in the uk works pretty well,

As far as health care goes. Our country is bankrupt. We are borrowing around a billion dollars a day from China. We are losing jobs at a record rate. How on earth does the government plan on paying for this? I have no more to give. Sooner or later you have to pull your head out of the sand and get real.

Originally Posted by BigIan

I Like the fact that they are calling people communists.

Didn`t you get over that in the early 90`s?

Well it is Communism when the government controls all aspects of your life isn't it?

There is almost nothing in the life of an American citizen that is not regulated by the
government in some way.

Originally Posted by Miner123

Well it is Communism when the Government controls all aspects of your life isn't it?

Nope communism, in the true marxist sence has no centeral goverment, every one is given a vote on policies, what to produce, what nit to produce, and every one is given an equal share. tis a some what impractical social idea.

And its not as if the goverment would run it down to the front line.
here if you get sick you go to the docs get srted out and go on living as normal.
If i were in my current situation in america, Me being a full time student and my wife to be working, we would not be able to afford health care, especially as the wife may have M.S meaning a whole battery of tests at massive expence.
However every one in the country pays 11% of there wages to the goverment, this is then set aside to run the NHS, unemployment pay, and state pensions.
while the NHS probably falls short of some of the more expensive hospitals in america, if i loose my job, or if i get hit by a bus i know i`ll get looked after to some degree, and that when my working life is over i`ll have some money back off the goverment.

If thats communisium, well it aint so bad.

Originally Posted by BigIan

Nope communism, in the true marxist sence has no centeral goverment, every one is given a vote on policies, what to produce, what nit to produce, and every one is given an equal share. tis a some what impractical social idea.

And its not as if the goverment would run it down to the front line.
here if you get sick you go to the docs get srted out and go on living as normal.
If i were in my current situation in america, Me being a full time student and my wife to be working, we would not be able to afford health care, especially as the wife may have M.S meaning a whole battery of tests at massive expence.
However every one in the country pays 11% of there wages to the goverment, this is then set aside to run the NHS, unemployment pay, and state pensions.
while the NHS probably falls short of some of the more expensive hospitals in america, if i loose my job, or if i get hit by a bus i know i`ll get looked after to some degree, and that when my working life is over i`ll have some money back off the goverment.

If thats communisium, well it aint so bad.

If you want to be a slave it's pretty good, but between federal taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, estate taxes, Property/school taxes, fuel taxes, Permit fees, License fees, vehicle registration fees, state required insurance on vehicles. etc. etc. etc. There's not much room for another 11% especially if your pay is being cut due to a terrible economy, if you still want to eat that is.

You are looking at half your pay going to the government. Maybe that's not Communism but I would call it feudalism, seeing as if you don't pay your taxes the government will remove you from their (excuse me) your property.

It's really sad. This used to the the land of the free.

tis the same here, car tax (varies according to vehicle mine is nearly £300 per year) council tax (varies according to building normaly a couple of hundred quid per year. VAT 17.5% tax on pretty much every thing we buy.
fuel tax is 60% plus many others.

IMHO it seems like the us gov is trying to make changes moddeled on systems that work else where in the world.
Now before i get branded a "commie" i`ll leave.

Originally Posted by Miner123

You are looking at half your pay going to the government. Maybe that's not Communism but I would call it feudalism, seeing as if you don't pay your taxes the government will remove you from their (excuse me) your property.

40% for me.
That said, can we just accept that our healthcare system is working top notch and on par with the US system, purely looking at the quality of provided care for the sake of the discussion to keep things simple?

You may have a higher percentage left of your income. When all taxes and other things have been withheld, how much is taken away in total? You may have more left at that point. BUT you then also have to pay for medical insurance. Our system has virtually no co-pay for medically warranted procedures (i.e. things you need due to sickness and not because you want shiny white teeth caps or a boob job) and for dental work.

If you choose a full coverage insurance with virtually no co-pay including dental, for you, your wife and your kid, and subtract that amount from your pay, what do you have left? From what I understood from US friends of mine, you'd have less than me.

Now, factor in that universities and colleges also are fairly cheap (co pay 10 years ago was about a grand a year for tuition, books, etc). I got my masters degree without accumulating debt (while at the same time some of my family members were chronically ill) without bankrupting my parents.

So toss in the cost of a decent education as well, and you come out way, way lower than me. And this is why there is no uprising, demanding a fully capitalistic system. We are better off, and come out way ahead of you, money wise. Sure, we don't have the freedom to gamble everything on good luck. Our personal theoretical maximum profit is lower than yours. We are forced to participate. But when all is said and done, it works out just fine, numbers-wise.