Health Care Reform; States suing as unconstitutional

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Originally Posted by honedright

Oh but guys like you are too good for that eh? You were a cop right? You could provide security services for a hospital until you debt was paid, saving the hospital extra expense.

If you can't pay your bill in dollars and cents, then pay in time and service. That is the American way.

When did America stop being the land of the free and home of the brave, and become the home of the lazy looking for handouts??

How embarrassing :o

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Is that why we have so much credit card debt and people who bought houses they couldn't afford? :gaah:

What happens when the hospital can't find enough shifts for the thousands of people that owe it tens of thousand of dollars? What happens to the people whose job you take to work off your medical bills? Who pays for your kids while you work off your debt? C'mon...

Modern healthcare is simply too expensive for anyone other than the very wealthy to pay for. It's as simple as that. The pooling of risk funds is the only way to pay for it and we're all dependent on each other in that situation.

It's been asked once and nobody answered. Is health care a right? If not, how come we don't turn people away from ERs? How come we pay for Medicare? How come we have Medicaid? Should we scrap those and let everyone fend for themselves? We need to answer that question before we say what our system is supposed to accomplish.

With regard to the military, if I'm not mistaken, the VA is an example of the government providing care directly. VA doctors work for the government and we see the result. This is not what we need. Under Medicare, for example, the gov. pays private companies to adminster the plan and private practitioners provide the care and by and large, it works.

Jordan

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Originally Posted by jnich67

It's been asked once and nobody answered. Is health care a right?

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It's a privilege. I assume that ERs can't turn people away because it's mandated mercy. The constitution serves to give the federal government a mandate to protect your rights from those who are trying to take them away from you, not to give them a mandate to provide your rights or to force you to take advantage of your rights.

It would be nice if those who want to change the purpose of the constitution to include this kind of mandate would change it via amendment, but I guess not everything happens in an ideal fashion

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Originally Posted by BigIan

Please excuse a dumb brit for asking, but why is every one so against the system?
Coming from a country where this system is already in place, and works. and where could i find out some details about this new system?

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Not dumb .

The US non system is full of inequities...

One of the problems with the recently passed legislation is that
those that have good programs (the majority) will be subject to
plan changes that are intended to facilitate the needs of those
that do not have coverage.

The legislation is full of stuff not related to health care.

Most importantly it does nothing to improve health care!
If it does anything positive it may force changes in the health care
insurance system.

A critical problem in the US is a need for tort reform. When
a pediatrician is obliged to pay more than a million dollars
a year for personal liability insurance there is a million dollars
that is being skimmed off the top that has zero health care
value. We have the same issue with k-12 education where
vast sums are being spent on compliance, reporting and
legal defense where it would better be spent on education.

In the last 20 years I have had dental insurance that has a
reasonable and customary fee schedule. NO dentist in this
area has listed fees that match these schedules. Same for
a doctors office visit. There are negotiated fee schedules for
those that have and much more expensive fees for those that
do not have insurance. I am not talking about "boutique" doctors.

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Not dumb .

The US non system is full of inequities...

One of the problems with the recently passed legislation is that
those that have good programs (the majority) will be subject to
plan changes that are intended to facilitate the needs of those
that do not have coverage.

The legislation is full of stuff not related to health care.

Most importantly it does nothing to improve health care!
If it does anything positive it may force changes in the health care
insurance system.

A critical problem in the US is a need for tort reform. When
a pediatrician is obliged to pay more than a million dollars
a year for personal liability insurance there is a million dollars
that is being skimmed off the top that has zero health care
value. We have the same issue with k-12 education where
vast sums are being spent on compliance, reporting and
legal defense where it would better be spent on education.

In the last 20 years I have had dental insurance that has a
reasonable and customary fee schedule. NO dentist in this
area has listed fees that match these schedules. Same for
a doctors office visit. There are negotiated fee schedules for
those that have and much more expensive fees for those that
do not have insurance. I am not talking about "boutique" doctors.

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I agree, the bill just passed is going to do nothing to contain rising health care costs. The middle class in particular will bear the brunt of paying for care for the poor and will continue to lose insurance and jobs because of rising costs. The wealthy will always be able to pay for the care they want/need and the poor will get help from the government. the rest of us are stuck and it will be a good 10 years before the issue is really revisted.


Jordan

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Originally Posted by BAMARACING8

4 November 2008....hope that answers your question

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Oh you may be correct, but I suspect that date only heralded the flowering, but not the sowing. I think maybe the seeds were cast by JP. Morgan and his Jekyl Island cronies? Maybe a bit later by FDR? Who knows...

Maybe at this point it doesn't matter. What matters now is damage control.

Agreed, very bad, very expensive legislation that doesn't improve, but, restructures. The over-all direct expenses, (tax-increase, alledged compliance fines, creation of more bureaucracies, expansion of IRS, and more), and the indirect financial effects, (simple example Catepillar estimates the bill will cost them an additional $100,000,000.00 annually, thereby negatively affecting possible increases in employment)...I won't go on.

There is only one way to rectify the problem, decide who put it to you with this decision and, if they are up in the Fall, vote them out. People talk about repeal...as it stands today, you couldn't repeal the menu in the congressional cafeteria...if you don't like what has been happening or that most recently happened...you need to change the players as we saw how much they paid attention to their constituents. Not getting radical here, but, if you like what is going on...vote em back in, if not, you have to vote them out...it's that simple.

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Originally Posted by jnich67

Is that why we have so much credit card debt and people who bought houses they couldn't afford? :gaah:

What happens when the hospital can't find enough shifts for the thousands of people that owe it tens of thousand of dollars? What happens to the people whose job you take to work off your medical bills? Who pays for your kids while you work off your debt? C'mon...

Modern healthcare is simply too expensive for anyone other than the very wealthy to pay for. It's as simple as that. The pooling of risk funds is the only way to pay for it and we're all dependent on each other in that situation.

It's been asked once and nobody answered. Is health care a right? If not, how come we don't turn people away from ERs? How come we pay for Medicare? How come we have Medicaid? Should we scrap those and let everyone fend for themselves? We need to answer that question before we say what our system is supposed to accomplish.

With regard to the military, if I'm not mistaken, the VA is an example of the government providing care directly. VA doctors work for the government and we see the result. This is not what we need. Under Medicare, for example, the gov. pays private companies to adminster the plan and private practitioners provide the care and by and large, it works.

Jordan

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"What happens when the hospital can't find enough shifts for the thousands of people that owe it tens of thousand of dollars?"

You really think there are that many deadbeats out there? Well, first of all good for the hospitals and medical clinics! Imagine how many hospitals could be built and run on the labor of debtors! Imagine the cost savings. Can't pay your bill for open heart surgery? Have no insurance? Great, get treated and then help the hospital landscaping department. Fresh air, physical therapy, needed exercise - and let's not forget - you owe the hospital something...so work it off.

"What happens to the people whose job you take to work off your medical bills? Who pays for your kids while you work off your debt?"

C'mon - as Bigspendur pointed out, there are plenty of jobs that others wont do like emptying bed pans and such. But really - if there is such a deficit in this country of health care service, then there is no doubt and endless supply of ancillary jobs that could be performed by "debtors" without threatening anyone's job. Also, you must buy into the economic fallacy of "Full Employment." If a hospital can get someone to do a job as repayment for a hospital service in lieu of cash payment, then it benefits the hospital. Any supposed displaced "employees," if they are qualified, can go find work elsewhere. Were not talking about doctors and nurses here - but janitors, security, food service, etc.

Oh, and who pays for your kids? You do! Get a second job. Work out a deal with the hospital for food. Get creative. But don't go out begging. Get up off your @$$ and make something of yourself. Sounds harsh don't it?

Actually if there were more people with a "pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps" attitude, then there would more than likely be more than enough resources for those TRULY in need of help. But instead our government is, and has been for years, cultivating a larger and larger class of dependents who could help themselves, but don't have to, and therefore don't.

Really - stop looking for excuses for laziness.


Modern healthcare is simply too expensive for anyone other than the very wealthy to pay for. It's as simple as that. The pooling of risk funds is the only way to pay for it and we're all dependent on each other in that situation.

"It's been asked once and nobody answered. Is health care a right? If not, how come we don't turn people away from ERs?"

No, it's not a right. Do you have a "right" to the services of any other profession? Why not? Look up the definition of "Right." People are not turned away from ER wards because doctors take an oath to treat. Imagine how long a doctor's career would last refusing patients on the basis of ability to pay. Imagine the lawsuits. Not good.

"How come we pay for Medicare?" Do we have a choice?

"Should we scrap those and let everyone fend for themselves?" Interesting. What would have happened in this country if, instead of creating Social Security, the government had instead promoted a program teaching people how to save and invest. Then instead of giving their money to Uncle Sam, they could have grown it for themselves. How much would a few thousand dollars (I'm guessing here) invested in 1937, for instance, in the stock market, be worth today? What if everyone were doing that? Is that "fending for yourself"?

honed i agree with you on the damage control for sure!...........it just seems that the middle class is getting shafted yet again from people being lazy wanting all the handouts..this is off topic but the other day on the news they had al sharpton and some other guy discussing how the president hasnt done enough for "black america" i am in no way trying to turn this into any sort of racial slur or debate but last time i checked this is the United States of America.....where everyone has the equal opprotunity to work hard and have a succsesful life....the point i am trying to make is when is this train wreck going to stop. people need to quit wanting a government handout and get outside and go do work

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Originally Posted by BAMARACING8

people need to quit wanting a government handout and get outside and go do work

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as long as handouts are available, they will be taken. And people who promise more of them seem to have good success gathering votes. in a nutshell I think that's how it works because once you offer a handout, it's tough to take it away

I'm against gov. handouts for people unwilling to pull their weight. I've voted Republican all my life, but what about the fact that an increasing number of working Americans - not lazy bums - can no longer afford their health insurance premiums - or that their employers can no longer afford to offer health plans? What about the fact that we spend far more than any other country on healthcare, but our "health" is no better? How do we fix the system before it collapses? Don't just tell me "the government can't/shouln't be involved". What does the answer involve? How do you see it happening?

Jordan