Thread: Are We Incrementally Losing Our Freedom?

Originally Posted by honedright

My question was general - once again you are making it a personal attack by questioning my logic and grasp of reality. I find it demeaning and belittling for you to do so unprovoked my me.

As I said in my post, I am taking the word of a poster who claims to live in a country with universal health care. Now maybe he exaggerated the case or misspoke, I don't know.

You state that "Well, none of that happens in reality." OK, now I could just take your word, or you might back that up with fact?
How do you know this? Have you ever practiced as a health care provider and dealt with malingerers, lonely people who feign illness just to have someone to talk to, prescription drug seekers, etc?
I had a patient once with a file about 4 inches thick. She had been visiting this particular "free" clinic for approximately 20 years, once or twice a week. For her it was a just social visit more than anything else. Basic logic bypassed - but there she was none-the-less. I have talked with many docs with similar cases.

Sorry, but my reality just doesn't match with your scenario.

I apologize. I just fail to see how such scenarios, which apparently you don't even think are likely, further the discussion.

He didn't misspeak. You *could* go for the sniffles. But the fact that you could doesn't mean people do. It's only an exaggeration to assume anyone would.

If people went to the doctor for every cold, pimple, and headache, it would be reflected in the cost of maintaining the system, and surely, after nearly 50 years of having public health care, they'd have dealt with such abuses.

There will always by hypochondriacs, Münchhausen's (by proxy), drug abusers, and other anxiety-related mental disorders and addiction problems. But they certainly don't reflect the majority, or even a significant minority, of people.

People in America with such disorders have equally thick medical files, regardless of cost. I knew such a person who drove herself into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt due to her hypochondria. Whether health care is free or not has no effect on how people express mental disorders. Mental disorders, by their very nature, cause people to do things which are not logically sound.

I don't think we can deduce the patterns of the majority by the actions of a tiny minority.

Besides what MistressNomad said about hypochondriacs and people with recognized psychological disorders, I'll just mention that we already have overprescription of antibiotics, overprescription of Ritalin and various psychotropics for children, and far too many C-sections, to name a few examples, under our expensive system of for-profit health insurance. On a casual reading it may very well seem logical that cheaper and more readily available medical care would lead to overuse, but in fact the experience of countries that have such care (the entire developed world except us) doesn't appear to bear that out.

~Rich

Originally Posted by rastewart

Besides what MistressNomad said about hypochondriacs and people with recognized psychological disorders, I'll just mention that we already have overprescription of antibiotics, overprescription of Ritalin and various psychotropics for children, and far too many C-sections, to name a few examples, under our expensive system of for-profit health insurance. On a casual reading it may very well seem logical that cheaper and more readily available medical care would lead to overuse, but in fact the experience of countries that have such care (the entire developed world except us) doesn't appear to bear that out.

~Rich

You bring up a very good point about medications. Our medical system is so money-focused that we are drugging people when they don't need to be drugged, with medications that are not FDA approved for the way they're being used. It's abusive and insane.

On the C-section front, I was just reading the blog of a friend of mine the other day (American). She advised women who are pregnant, or want children, to have a "spokesperson" in the hospital when they're ready to give birth, because the hospital will likely try to force a C-section on her whether she needs it or not. That is also abusive and insane.

This is what happens when you turn people's lives into a money game. Health comes second. Actually, not even that. Money first, lawsuit coverage second, then health.

I was listening to the radio while driving down the highway the other night, and the host of a talk radio show had a democratic guest (Dennis Kucinich) and a Republican one (some guy running for congress in Idaho, I think it was).

Anyway, I thought Kucinich was a lot more eloquent than his counterpart. First, he said he wasn't necessarily gung-ho about the new health care reform, since he wasn't sure exactly how well it was going to work (and I suppose no one is), but he seemed thoughtful about how when it came time to vote for this particular bill, it was up to him whether or not to kill it or not, and allowing it to survive ensured that it could at least be attempted rather than let it be disregarded for many years to come. And that's what politics is about -making room for new ideas and attempting them, rather than allowing partisan beliefs to rule you.

The guy hoping to be a congressman was a lot more knee-jerk in his stance. Emotional, too; yelling and obviously trying hard to let it go no further than that. He even went on to say that his mother has Lupus, and mounting health care bills that they're struggling to afford, and yet both he and she would rather have the for-profit health care competitors charge them hundreds of thousands of dollars than have a reasonable, structured health care system that all Americans can benefit from. He was unable to look at both sides, to reason. The only thing he could think about was how something was being taken from him. One of his "freedoms."

Frankly, I don't really care either way what the US does about this, but witnessing the ignorance from people is pretty spooky. A lot of people are acting like Dale Gribble on King of the Hill, wanting to stockpile weapons and ammunition for fear of the government coming to seize them...calling Obama the anti-Christ and suggesting that the seven seals are being broken one by one. There's not going to be a hammer and sickle on the flag. Just relax. Educate yourselves about the countries that have adopted similar health care systems and then realize that they're better than the pre-existing American one.

Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

Frankly, I don't really care either way what the US does about this, but witnessing the ignorance from people is pretty spooky. A lot of people are acting like Dale Gribble on King of the Hill, wanting to stockpile weapons and ammunition for fear of the government coming to seize them...calling Obama the anti-Christ and suggesting that the seven seals are being broken one by one. There's not going to be a hammer and sickle on the flag. Just relax. Educate yourselves about the countries that have adopted similar health care systems and then realize that they're better than the pre-existing American one.

We have no argument here...whats the saying...wise men speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something...

Believe me, these types are the smallest of factions of the population, but, because of their disfunction, they always talk the loudest and the most, consequently, you are always hearing them or about them. Then we have the media, as I alluded to earlier...hyping for copy or agenda...would have you thinking the world is about to end...so stay tuned.

A great example...in the early 90's, my line of work was public service lets say...and in the particular part of the country where I worked, we had a bout for a few months with The Militia...as they are sometimes called. This received national coverage...long standing national coverage. Though they were idiots...paranoids...whatever, I'm telling you they amounted to a handful of incompetents and gave up the cause when we knocked at the door, so to speak. I'm sure the folks in New York thought we were holding the line until the tanks got to us. Again, not much to worry about.

Like someone in government said recentlyt, "never waste a crisis and if you don't have one, create one...."

Originally Posted by hardblues

We have no argument here...whats the saying...wise men speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something...

Believe me, these types are the smallest of factions of the population, but, because of their disfunction, they always talk the loudest and the most, consequently, you are always hearing them or about them. Then we have the media, as I alluded to earlier...hyping for copy or agenda...would have you thinking the world is about to end...so stay tuned.

A great example...in the early 90's, my line of work was public service lets say...and in the particular part of the country where I worked, we had a bout for a few months with The Militia...as they are sometimes called. This received national coverage...long standing national coverage. Though they were idiots...paranoids...whatever, I'm telling you they amounted to a handful of incompetents and gave up the cause when we knocked at the door, so to speak. I'm sure the folks in New York thought we were holding the line until the tanks got to us. Again, not much to worry about.

Like someone in government said recentlyt, "never waste a crisis and if you don't have one, create one...."

Oh, I know not everyone acts that way. Not by a long shot. And yes, the media's job has historically been to not just report the news, but to sensationalize it too. I'm afraid that's probably never going to change.

Still, I keep my ear to the ground, and even reading the comments and topics that pop up in this forum on a daily basis can be very telling. A lot of what's said I find to be really spooky. On whole host of different topics. Again, I'm not painting everyone with the same brush here, but one thing that's always struck me as unusual about the American media is how narrowed its focus is. The television media in particular, but also a lot of print journalism. The average guy will often cite Fox News or MSNBC's coverage of a story with total certainty that he now understand the full scope of what he's talking about, which is obviously no good. Canada has its share of garbage media outlets too, but we do seem to have fewer filters, and unlike the US, our headlines often reach beyond our own borders. So anyway, when I hear people talking like they do about the issue at hand, my first thought is, "Why are they like this?"

*Shrug*

Oh no, Blade, I didn't take it that way, and yeah, you never want to ignore idiots...they can be dangerous...but...by my observation and therefore only my opinion...they are, for the most part, hyped to be in greater numbers and more ominous than they are...they are the idiot that runs to be in view of the camera...and the loudest voice in the crowd...usually motivated because they don't have a life or are very depressed because their life is $hi* because of they chose not to make a good life...they are dysfunctional and are quick to join any faction that has someone to blame for their misery.

I'm Generation Web, so I don't know if this is true, but perhaps some of you folks who have been around a bit longer can tell me...

But I wonder if newspapers/broadcasts are getting gradually more sensationalist as they're continuing to lose clients to the internet. Traditional journalism is pretty much having a panic attack right now. Getting people to pay for news is a thing of the past.

Have you noticed the sensationalism intensifying over the last 15 years or so?