Thread: Are We Incrementally Losing Our Freedom?

Originally Posted by MistressNomad

Too late. Rewind to 2007, when Bush quietly signed into law a re-vamped Patriot Act, allowing everything from Executive overruling of the judicial branch, to Constitutional breeches, to silencing of protests, to suspension of Habeas Corpus, to pervasive wiretapping and spying.

Some of these things are enabled by extremely vague wording, and some are explicitly stated.

It's like a ticking bomb sitting in on our law books.

I am wondering why the current administration has not yet overturned the Patriot Act. I know it was not popular, and there was an opportunity recently get rid of it, but that did not happen.

I think what has happened is that polititians and political parties are like sports teams. People don't really like their home team, but God don't let anybody say anything bad about them. The home team can cheat to win, but don't let anybody else cheat to win. I say this about both parties, not one over the other. We just keep taking the same issue and beating it back and forth over a net. Whoever is in power must be doing a good job with it as viewed by their party.

I do believe that if Bush and the Republicans had created health care reform of the type that was just passed and in the method that is was passed, the same folks that are loving it would be hating it. With all the same stuff even. It just depends who did it.

The thing that I can't figure out is why anyone would take their chances with any proven liars, cheaters, and power brokers over their own abilites? Surely you believe in yourself more than any politician. Surely you value your freedom more than you value the nipple of governments.

This is not going to end well for any side of this debate. This is a story that has replayed itself for thousands of years. It always ends the same way. 99% of the population is miserable but equal, and 1% of the population is rich, happy and controls the other 99%.

Oh well - In Vino Veritas!

Originally Posted by Alembic

Oh well - In Vino Veritas!

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Alembic

I am wondering why the current administration has not yet overturned the Patriot Act. I know it was not popular, and there was an opportunity recently get rid of it, but that did not happen.

I think what has happened is that polititians and political parties are like sports teams. People don't really like their home team, but God don't let anybody say anything bad about them. The home team can cheat to win, but don't let anybody else cheat to win. I say this about both parties, not one over the other. We just keep taking the same issue and beating it back and forth over a net. Whoever is in power must be doing a good job with it as viewed by their party.

I do believe that if Bush and the Republicans had created health care reform of the type that was just passed and in the method that is was passed, the same folks that are loving it would be hating it. With all the same stuff even. It just depends who did it.

The thing that I can't figure out is why anyone would take their chances with any proven liars, cheaters, and power brokers over their own abilites? Surely you believe in yourself more than any politician. Surely you value your freedom more than you value the nipple of governments.

This is not going to end well for any side of this debate. This is a story that has replayed itself for thousands of years. It always ends the same way. 99% of the population is miserable but equal, and 1% of the population is rich, happy and controls the other 99%.

Oh well - In Vino Veritas!

I'm wondering that too. Obama specifically approved renewal. What the hell. Politicians, man...

You're absolutely right. I think, as a whole, the Democrats are currently less corrupt, but not because they're any better. Because they've been out of power for a while, and they just haven't had the time to buy back all their assets yet. That's why. Give it 10 years, it'll go the other way.

And if Bush was dumb enough to let something like the Patriot Act ride on his historical shoulders, the Dems are going to capitalize on the power, just like the Republicans did.

I agree with you about the health care bill. I remember a few years ago when there was the whole broo-ha-ha about the Mexican border, Bush actually came up with a decent idea.

I can't remember the specifics - I have the memory of a gold fish - but it was something to the effect of a cooperative work program for immigrants. Benefits them, benefits industry, everybody wins. I recall there being a couple things that needed some looking at, but the overarching idea was a good one.

Now, let me be clear. I HATE BUSH. I really, really do.

But that wasn't a bad idea, as I remember it. Eventually the rest of the Republicans strong-armed him into going with that stupid fence idea, but his original plan could have been a good one. I'm sure most people of my political ilk would have agreed if they'd taken the time to look.

But they didn't. Bush did it, so it's bad.

Any other time, they'd be right. But this time, a good idea slipped between the cracks because people jumped to conclusions.

Originally Posted by MistressNomad

I remember a few years ago when there was the whole broo-ha-ha about the Mexican border, Bush actually came up with a decent idea. ...

But that wasn't a bad idea, as I remember it. Eventually the rest of the Republicans strong-armed him into going with that stupid fence idea, but his original plan could have been a good one. ...

Good point--I remember a little about that too. I think immigration was one of the few areas where Bush's instincts were pretty good, but as generally seems to have happened, he let his party's right wing call the shots.

~Rich

Originally Posted by rastewart

Good point--I remember a little about that too. I think immigration was one of the few areas where Bush's instincts were pretty good, but as generally seems to have happened, he let his party's right wing call the shots.

~Rich

Remember that GW Bush was a governor of a huge border state, chances are he actually had the good pragmatic ideas about this, but just like any other politician sometimes one has to be realistic and choose ideological BS.

Originally Posted by Alembic

I am wondering why the current administration has not yet overturned the Patriot Act. I know it was not popular, and there was an opportunity recently get rid of it, but that did not happen.

It is most likely one of those things governments put in the bottom draw just in case they might need it one day!
Hope they are like me and forget where they put it .

Originally Posted by Alembic

I am wondering why the current administration has not yet overturned the Patriot Act. I know it was not popular, and there was an opportunity recently get rid of it, but that did not happen.

When candidate Obama became President Obama, he was immediately removed from the the fanciful world of being the opposition politician. Perhaps the national interest with the urgencies and necessities of the actual post-9/11 world asserted itself beyond cheap politics. The new President now, accountable had to be pragmatic and realistically offered few if any acceptable alternatives adopted what he formally criticized. Obama is doing it everyday, forget the denials, pay attention to what he is doing and, in this case, I cannot criticize him. A perfect answer does not work in an imperfect world. Perhaps not popular, but, true!

Recently, Caterpillar published claims that the new health care law would raise costs by $100 million, John Deere estimated $150 million. AT&T and Verizon released similar reports with even higher amounts resulting in the CEOs of these and other companies being summoned to Washington to defend claims that the health care reform law would cost them millions. Does this sound like Washington intimidation to “shut-up”?