Thread: Are We Incrementally Losing Our Freedom?

Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

What did he believe in?

That remains unclear. While Paine made some passing references to "god," it's clear he didn't share whatever conceptualization he had with any major religion. He also made clear that he held no brief whatsoever for xtianity. He was neither Jewish nor Muslim, of course, and no evidence exists of his adopting any of the native, more animistic belief systems prevalent among the indiginous populations of North America.

In another writing, he said "to do good is my religion."

Given Paine's other, less salubrious propensities, his "god" appears to have a lot in common with the "higher power" of 12-step programs: amorphous, undefined and not necessarily a "god" at all.

Originally Posted by gugi

I am not aware of a country where history that is being taught at schools is not mixed with propaganda.
I think the reasoning is to build national identity and pride, as it's quite successful at it.

At first or second grade I asked why all the wars we lost are termed invasions, while all the wars we won were liberations. Neither my parents nor my teacher answered that. I consider this my first accomplishment in logic.

In college I had a roommate who was historian and had taught few years in school before going to college. He told me directly that the history that is taught in schools is mandated to be propaganda and it's always been like that. The more objective stuff comes only in the higher education.

That is so true. Back in my schooldays as we had history the teacher -real fine old gentleman- just made some things he had to teach a joke. He knew that the history he taught was too close and we all knew better - we all had some family members involved in these incidents. The 'truth' was politically correct propaganda.

Times are luckily better now. Today kids in high school have to pass the course on critical media thinking. They are taught not automatically to believe or at least be very critical on things they hear or read - even from from school.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Times are luckily better now. Today kids in high school have to pass the course on critical media thinking. They are taught not automatically to believe or at least be very critical on things they hear or read - even from from school.

I hope yours is better than ours.

We had similar courses in my high school, but they were just holding pens to appease parents. We learned nothing.

We watched CNN Student News (CNN for 5th graders, or ages 10 and 11 - we were mostly seniors in high school, so 17 or 18) because the students were so lazy that trying to get them to read anything substantial was a lost cause.

All of the "critical thinking" exercises we did actually had pretty obvious agendas, not that it mattered, because the conversation devolved into righties screaming at lefties and vise versa before we even had a chance to examine it.

Critical thinking my ass. All they taught me was to lower my expectations of people.

Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

What did he believe in?

IMO he was a diest.

I thought I explained where you could find what he believed, on the subject of god, The Age of Reason. I have never put much stock in anothers' opinion about what someone else believed, so I always go to the source, and I figure most people are the same way and is why I never usually provide links, go search for your own education.

The reason it is hard to put his beliefs into a religious category is he didnt believe in organized religion, and set out to put a knife in it in France during their revolution, which is when he wrote it. The downside was he lost alot of 'friends' in america, because of it. Here are a couple clips, so you dont have to take my word for it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QTs...7%2C711&edge=0

http://books.google.com/books?id=QTs...6%2C813&edge=0

Hope this helps. The whole thing is there too, if your so inclined.


But I'm sure you already know a little about Thomas Paine's beliefs, and why you asked in this thread. He WAS one of the first supporters of social justice, in his Rights of Man. IIRC though, his vision of social justice varied quite a bit from what it is thought to consist of today, maybe I'll go get my copy and re-read it.

Originally Posted by MistressNomad

I hope yours is better than ours.

We had similar courses in my high school, but they were just holding pens to appease parents. We learned nothing.

We watched CNN Student News (CNN for 5th graders, or ages 10 and 11 - we were mostly seniors in high school, so 17 or 18) because the students were so lazy that trying to get them to read anything substantial was a lost cause.

All of the "critical thinking" exercises we did actually had pretty obvious agendas, not that it mattered, because the conversation devolved into righties screaming at lefties and vise versa before we even had a chance to examine it.

Critical thinking my ass. All they taught me was to lower my expectations of people.

I'm not sure but i think those courses on critical thinking have really something to give today. I can base this only on arguing with my daughter. If it were just she would question the values and truths we have, but she really seems to have some real idea in her head - makes me to have real troubles telling what i believe, and as for someone serving in the military it makes it even harder for me.
In the youth we have our future and even once i'm little positive with that.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Originally Posted by Miner123

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin

But Franklin was a womanizing, drunken hedonist, who abandoned his wife, leaving her to fend for herself, and cheated on her with horny french women. So who cares what he said.

Originally Posted by honedright

But Franklin was a womanizing, drunken hedonist, who abandoned his wife, leaving her to fend for herself, and cheated on her with horny french women. So who cares what he said.

I don't think he believed in marriage, at least not enough to officiate his relationship with his long-term opposite sex partner. He most certainly wouldn't be a good Christian role-model nowadays, but most biblical figures won't make the cut either in their real-life selves.
In all fairness he was just a postmaster general, Mr. Spitzer should've taken notes on what's a good office to hold.

Originally Posted by MistressNomad

I remember my teacher standing at the front of the class, looking very grave, and saying something to this effect:

"My job is to teach you comprehensively about American history. So with that in mind, I'm going to show you something. Before I do, I need your word - all of you - that you won't show this to your parents or other teachers. I could get in very big trouble for this. But this textbook doesn't always allow me to do my job."

Of course we were all very on edge. This had to be something serious right?

He passed out a new textbook. I opened it, not sure what to expect, but expecting something truly radical.

That's not what it was. It was just an account of American history. Probably the least biased one I'd ever read, in that there was absolutely no "gushy" language in it, which I'd come to expect from American history textbooks. It wasn't telling me to worship the Founders. It was just telling me what they did.

All of it. The good, the bad, the ugly, and the incredible. Everything from their sacrifice to their moral failings.

And the idea that my teacher could have gotten fired for showing us the truth, in a Northern state no less, still blows my mind to this day.

It's been a few years since then. They forced him to retire this year, I believe. I wonder why. I wonder if they suspected something.

I guess on the whole I'm not surprised, even, as you say, in a Northern state. Do you recall the title or author of the book by any chance?

I've begun reading Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States. In his preface he says something to the effect that history is always written from a point of view, and that he chose to give more weight to the experiences of the disadvantage, oppressed, and enslaved. I think there is truth to what he says, so am going to follow for myself the principle, if you really want to understand history, read at least two texts.

Sailor, I know that experience of being really challenged in an argument with a daughter--not the kind of arguments that can make adolescence hell, but the arguments about ideas and principles when they are thinking for themselves. Quite an experience! It leaves me dismayed (at my own limitations) and proud at the same time.

~Rich

Originally Posted by rastewart

I guess on the whole I'm not surprised, even, as you say, in a Northern state. Do you recall the title or author of the book by any chance?

I don't, as I have a truly, stupendously awful memory.

However, there is a possibility I may still have it somewhere. Everything's in boxes, but I'll have a look.