Thread: Are We Incrementally Losing Our Freedom?

Originally Posted by gugi

the advantages of 35hour work week eh

That and a workforce that is thoroughly unionized. Magistrates will strike because the teachers did, when the teachers struck in support of their fellow French busdrivers, who struck because the trash collectors were being mistreated.

Hard to imagine any such thing happening here.

That and long lunches. They're getting quite a bit right.

Originally Posted by gregs656

That and long lunches. They're getting quite a bit right.

Don't forget the afternoon nap. Those are downright therapeutic.

The six-weeks'-paid vacation doesn't exactly suck, either.

six weeks paid vaca a year i thought i was doing good with a month wish i could get an afternoon nap im always pretty smoked when i get home from my night shift i just want to go home and sleep like a bear in the winter time

=BobKincaid;568322]Then I restate my question: specifically, what "freedoms" have you lost?

My right to be judged by my peers. - Reagans mandatory minimum laws

My right to be secure in my person and property.

My right to travel unrestricted- the drivers license laws

My right to choose what enters my body.- The FDA chooses for me now.

My right to choose medical treatments.- Again the FDA gets to choose for me.

My right against self incrimination.- the dui laws, with the help of DL law.

My right to get a job without racial bias.- affirmative action laws

My right to freedom up to and until I violate someone elses rights- Now I have freedom up and until someone thinks I might/could violate their rights. - BAC laws, smoking laws

My right to control my own buisiness.- Smoking laws

My right to the fruits of my labor.- excessive taxation

My right to due- process.- For some charges all it take is congress voting and it is considered due-process. No court case, to show proof, just the punishment.

My right to have a government that derives its just power from the consent of the governed. - Lost in civil war

My right to equal rights.- Married people have special rights, minorities have special rights, government employees have special rights, corporations have special rights, non-smokers have special rights, mothers have special rights and on and on.

Our right to vote without qualification, and the laws/ammendments passed because of that qualification. - Civil war and reconstruction

Our right, as independent states, to suceed, when the ends of the federal government, become harmful to our rights that they were formed to protect.- Lost when history was re-written after civil war.

Our right to life- We only have that right if our mother agrees

Our right to liberty.- We are free as long as we agree to do what the majority think is alright for us to do.

Our right to pursue happiness.- Seems we think we can just give it away.

Our right that all duties, impost, and excises are uniform- ask smokers and drinkers if there taxes are uniform, or for that matter the rich.

Our right to fail or better put our right to the consequnces of our actions.

Our right to the constitutional republic our founders framed.

I could keep going but I think my point has been made, but I have been wrong before.

Beyond that, what in the world are you going on about with all the right-wing abortion talking points? Me, I'm a guy. I'm neither pro- nor anti-choice, since I don't have a womb.

I am going on with all this, because the biggest argument I have heard is how can an advanced civilization like ours allow the poor to die in the streets(even though their not), I ask how can we call ourselves an advanced civilization, or even civilized for that matter, when we dont protect the weakest, most innocent of our society, isnt that the whole purpose of grouping into a society. In nature only the strong survive, in society the weak are supposed to be protected. Its all part of the "social contract". What is the evolutionary purpose of the womb, to make a kid, or is it just a pleasure zone to enjoy with no consequences? I personally dont think that government has a right to say abortion is legal, but I also dont feel they have a right to say it is illegal, it is one of those secure in your person things. If you say a woman has the right to choose what happens with her body, do I not have the same power over my body? We are supposed to have equal rights, correct? If we have the power to choose what we do to our bodies, do we not have the right to the fruits of our labor with that same body?

Ok, I'm going point-by-point. I want you to look at it and try to spot the trend - HONEST DIALOGUE. We've been asking you for examples for several pages of posts now, and it took us days to get you to tell us what you were unhappy with. We can't have an honest dialogue if that is what it takes to even get a very general idea what you're talking about.

1. You're right on mandatory minimum sentencing - granted.

2. Are you willing to allow meth labs and terrorists to also be 100% secure in person and property too? If not, then how can you be?

3. Are you willing to take the same risks on food and medication that junkies do buying drugs on the street? If not, then how can you completely oppose the FDA, who is charged with making sure what you're consuming doesn't kill you?

4. Same as above, more or less. Do you want to just not know if some wacky doctor is cutting you open? Or would you rather be sure you probably won't die on the table?

5. The 5th applies to what you say - nothing more. Are you defending that you have the right to kill people on the road? Or that you would want to drive on roads where drunks could kill you?

6. Again, agreed. Affirmative action as it stands is just reverse-racism. We should start a dialogue not just saying as much, but also discussing alternatives to address bigotry in all directions.

7. Someone with severe asthma could have an attack then and there if they are in a confined space with someone who is smoking. Do you defend your right to send them to the hospital? Are you suggesting we wait until someone is ACTUALLY hurt before we do anything?

8. Same as above.

9. How are taxes excessive, exactly? Especially since as mentioned, you are getting back more money than you send out?

10. Agreed on due process. Again, let's open a fruitful dialogue.

11. Agreed again. If they try to succeed again, I say let 'em go. More funding for the states that actually pay the money.

12. Emphatically agreed about special treatment. I think we specifically need a dialogue about the misandry that is going on, and is becoming acceptable, especially towards men who are white, is damaging to our society.

13. In the original Consititution, women couldn't vote at all and black people only counted for 3/5ths. So, point out to me a time when voting has been any freer than it is now? Perhaps it is not a right that was taken, but one we never had.

14. Agreed on succession, as above.

15. Prove to me, without using religion, that a fetus prior to 12 weeks (when nearly all non-medical abortions occur), is A life. And what I mean by A life is that it must meet the criteria for an independent being, because, after all, a cancer cell is technically "alive." Prove this to me. Until you do, your argument is invalid and rest on faulty premises.

16. That's what a democracy is. What you're advocating is something nearer to anarchy, or heavy libertarianism. The democracy has decided it doesn't want to stay tribal like that - it wants to compete.

17. Can't pursue happiness how?

18. Their taxes are in proportion to the liklihood of illness befalling them due to using that substance. Now, admittedly, I think the social hatred and prejudice we allow of smokers has gone way, way too far. But I think the taxes are fair. Smoking directly kills 1/3 of the people who do it. How many drinkers die directly from drinking?

19. You have the right to fail or succeed. You also have the right to not die for the flu, so that you can have an opportunity to try again, should you fail. No one is successful the first time, or every time, even the greatest of people.

20. I will take it you define our republic as what you've listed above. But what you've listed above is mostly not entailed by the framework.

As to your little abortion tirade at the end, again, the onus is on you to provide some sort of factual reason why the entire premise of your argument - a fetus, or even a zygote, as independent life, is in any way valid. Until that time, it's not even worth discussing.

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

My right to be judged by my peers. - Reagans mandatory minimum laws

My right to be secure in my person and property.

My right to travel unrestricted- the drivers license laws

My right to choose what enters my body.- The FDA chooses for me now.

My right to choose medical treatments.- Again the FDA gets to choose for me.

My right against self incrimination.- the dui laws, with the help of DL law.

My right to get a job without racial bias.- affirmative action laws

My right to freedom up to and until I violate someone elses rights- Now I have freedom up and until someone thinks I might/could violate their rights. - BAC laws, smoking laws

My right to control my own buisiness.- Smoking laws

My right to the fruits of my labor.- excessive taxation

My right to due- process.- For some charges all it take is congress voting and it is considered due-process. No court case, to show proof, just the punishment.

My right to have a government that derives its just power from the consent of the governed. - Lost in civil war

My right to equal rights.- Married people have special rights, minorities have special rights, government employees have special rights, corporations have special rights, non-smokers have special rights, mothers have special rights and on and on.

Our right to vote without qualification, and the laws/ammendments passed because of that qualification. - Civil war and reconstruction

Our right, as independent states, to suceed, when the ends of the federal government, become harmful to our rights that they were formed to protect.- Lost when history was re-written after civil war.

Our right to life- We only have that right if our mother agrees

Our right to liberty.- We are free as long as we agree to do what the majority think is alright for us to do.

Our right to pursue happiness.- Seems we think we can just give it away.

Our right that all duties, impost, and excises are uniform- ask smokers and drinkers if there taxes are uniform, or for that matter the rich.

Our right to fail or better put our right to the consequnces of our actions.

Our right to the constitutional republic our founders framed.

I could keep going but I think my point has been made, but I have been wrong before.



I am going on with all this, because the biggest argument I have heard is how can an advanced civilization like ours allow the poor to die in the streets(even though their not), I ask how can we call ourselves an advanced civilization, or even civilized for that matter, when we dont protect the weakest, most innocent of our society, isnt that the whole purpose of grouping into a society. In nature only the strong survive, in society the weak are supposed to be protected. Its all part of the "social contract". What is the evolutionary purpose of the womb, to make a kid, or is it just a pleasure zone to enjoy with no consequences? I personally dont think that government has a right to say abortion is legal, but I also dont feel they have a right to say it is illegal, it is one of those secure in your person things. If you say a woman has the right to choose what happens with her body, do I not have the same power over my body? We are supposed to have equal rights, correct? If we have the power to choose what we do to our bodies, do we not have the right to the fruits of our labor with that same body?

We are supposed to have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in this nation. It's hard to do when the government decides what you can do and how much of your money you can keep.

If you happen to own a business as I once did and make a mistake in your taxes the government will come down on you with such force with penalties and late fees that it makes mafia loan sharks look like angels. They will force you to close your business and ruin your life. Don't ask me how I know.

We are living under a terrible tyranny in this country. And it will be enforced at the point of a gun.

Why do you think the IRS just hired 16,500 new agents with shotguns?

They will be the new enforcers and collection agency for the new "Health Care Bill"

It's the new freedom, enjoy it.

MistressNomad;568329]Who is taking money from you? As asked above, seriously, just give me a straight answer? Most people from the bottom half middle class down will be subsidized, and even the people above that will be paying less. You'll be *keeping* your money.

You have answered your own question, the ones getting subsidized are the ones taking my money. The whole belief that I give up my money to the government then they give it back to me for my own good is ridiculous, imo. They can never give back all that they take, since we have to pay the middleman, it makes more sense to me to leave my money in my paycheck and allow me to help myself with all my own money.

But speaking of unfair stealing of money, I see that you live in Utah. Not one of the worst states as far as median income, but low enough on the list that you get more federal taxes than you send out.

I think you will find that other states are the ones deciding how much federal money we get in this state, through their senators and congressmen/women. This was my favorite part of the confederate constitution, it made it illegal to take money from one state to do improvements in another state. Why is it that the northern states own 90% plus of their state land at the same time they vote to take more land from the use of the western states. How about an ammendment that if your congressperson votes to take property away from another state they have to give up that much of their own state. Why is it only the western states that need its land preserved?

That's true of most of the states there they claim to be protecting "capitalism" and decrying all these imaginary rights that they say are being taken but can't seem to produce any evidence of.

I guarantee the states you are complaining about would survive without the federal funding, while the populous states never could. It has happened before in our history, the north couldnt survive without the south, so they invaded and conquered, and that was after the north had to beg the south to help them get rid of the british in the north which they could of never done without them. I wonder if the south would have helped if they could have seen that the same freedom they were helping their fellow countrymen of the north gain, would be put to use in their demise not even a hundred years later.

The Northern states (you know, the ones who generally try to help the poor and better education, and all this other evil communist stuff you hate), not only make a higher median income (and thus pay more taxes), but get back fewer federal taxes than they put in, because it's getting sent over to Jesusland where they're still having problems with basic literacy and race riots.

Sounds like you have a problem with your money being spent on things you dont agree with also.

My state is financially holding up your state. And you think YOUR money is being stolen? You're the ones taking advantage of money you didn't earn.

Good try, but it is your representatives that are voting to send your money to us, it is not us taking the money from you. If you dont like us taking your money, how can you like taking our money?

This of course doesn't even convey how simplistic and hateful your apparent view of abortion issues is. More often than not, it is people who've done everything in their power to not wind up in that position in the first place, who just had bad luck.

Everything in their power? What do we have, a problem with immaculate conception in this country?

I won't even go into how just factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest calling it "killing a baby" is. It's just too absurd to deal with.

Baby had a heartbeat before, baby has no heartbeat after, isnt that killing a baby?

Tell ya what. Why don't you take all those taxes you're getting from the blue states (which have lower abortion rates than many red states, due to the people being better educated about contraception, by the way) and use it to personally support all the millions of unwanted children you think we should pour into our broken country. When you agree to that, we'll talk.

I guess those smart people havent been taught that contraception is not 100%, so relying on contraception to prevent childbirth 100% of the time is ridiculous and illogical. But as I have said before, keep your taxes, and we will keep ours.

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

My right to be judged by my peers. - Reagans mandatory minimum laws

My right to be secure in my person and property.

My right to travel unrestricted- the drivers license laws

My right to choose what enters my body.- The FDA chooses for me now.

My right to choose medical treatments.- Again the FDA gets to choose for me.

My right against self incrimination.- the dui laws, with the help of DL law.

My right to get a job without racial bias.- affirmative action laws

My right to freedom up to and until I violate someone elses rights- Now I have freedom up and until someone thinks I might/could violate their rights. - BAC laws, smoking laws

My right to control my own buisiness.- Smoking laws

My right to the fruits of my labor.- excessive taxation

My right to due- process.- For some charges all it take is congress voting and it is considered due-process. No court case, to show proof, just the punishment.

My right to have a government that derives its just power from the consent of the governed. - Lost in civil war

My right to equal rights.- Married people have special rights, minorities have special rights, government employees have special rights, corporations have special rights, non-smokers have special rights, mothers have special rights and on and on.

Our right to vote without qualification, and the laws/ammendments passed because of that qualification. - Civil war and reconstruction

Our right, as independent states, to suceed, when the ends of the federal government, become harmful to our rights that they were formed to protect.- Lost when history was re-written after civil war.

Our right to life- We only have that right if our mother agrees

Our right to liberty.- We are free as long as we agree to do what the majority think is alright for us to do.

Our right to pursue happiness.- Seems we think we can just give it away.

Our right that all duties, impost, and excises are uniform- ask smokers and drinkers if there taxes are uniform, or for that matter the rich.

Our right to fail or better put our right to the consequnces of our actions.

Our right to the constitutional republic our founders framed.

I could keep going but I think my point has been made, but I have been wrong before.



I am going on with all this, because the biggest argument I have heard is how can an advanced civilization like ours allow the poor to die in the streets(even though their not), I ask how can we call ourselves an advanced civilization, or even civilized for that matter, when we dont protect the weakest, most innocent of our society, isnt that the whole purpose of grouping into a society. In nature only the strong survive, in society the weak are supposed to be protected. Its all part of the "social contract". What is the evolutionary purpose of the womb, to make a kid, or is it just a pleasure zone to enjoy with no consequences? I personally dont think that government has a right to say abortion is legal, but I also dont feel they have a right to say it is illegal, it is one of those secure in your person things. If you say a woman has the right to choose what happens with her body, do I not have the same power over my body? We are supposed to have equal rights, correct? If we have the power to choose what we do to our bodies, do we not have the right to the fruits of our labor with that same body?

I'm only going to address myself to a couple of these, since MistressNomad has already done a more thorough job than I have the inclination to do.

1. "My right to be judged by my peers-mandatory minimum laws." Wrong. You STILL have the Constitutional right to be judged by your peers. A person charged with a federal crime has not lost the right to trial by jury (unless he's a Muslim). The jury is the Finder of Fact. That means they decide whether or not you're guilty. Mandatory minimum laws have NOTHING to do with a finding of guilt. They have to do with the imposition of sentence, and I do indeed, disagree with them, but they do not support your proposition.

2. Your right to travel unimpeded does not depend on a driver's license, unless you wish to assert the right to an automobile, which would be a rather socialist thing to assert. A driver's license is, under the law of the STATES (not the federal government) a privilege and NOT a right.

3. Your FDA complaints. Frankly, these are non-sensical. The FDA in no wise infringes upon your right to put all manner of things into your body. Think not? Drop by a holy roller church some night and watch 'em swiggin' strychnine, rollin' on the floor and playin' Pass The Pit Viper. You appear to be complaining, actually, that the government of We The People has made a democratic choice to oversee the introduction of toxins into the stream of commerce. You'll also need to have a look at the Constutution's Commerce Clause for this one.

4. Your complaint about self-incrimination viz. DUI laws. Again, you're confusing a "right" with a "privilege." As a matter of law, when you applied for the right from your state (not the federal government) you gave IMPLIED CONSENT to have your breath/blood/urine tested in the event there was probable cause under the 4th Amendment to believe you had operated a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol. If there was a right involved, you waived it. No one else did that for you.

5. Your due process argument displays an utter lack of comprehension of (a) due process and (b) the Constutution's ban on ex post facto laws or Bills of Attainder. You're describing a Bill of Attainder, and they don't happen.

Moreover, without spending any more time on this, I'll just say that this list reminds me of this piece, and that's the problem:
Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

So once more, I'll ask: of what RIGHTS do people think they've been deprived?

First of all, no, I do not have a problem with my money being sent to struggling states. I can only hope that given enough time, this money will keep enough of them alive and out of prison long enough that they can join us in the 21st century.

I am not selfish enough to blame the uneducated for their lack of education. That isn't their fault. It is the state's fault. And I will not punish the people for the misigivings of the state.

I am simply pointing out that you are not being consistent, considering you get more than you give.

And yes, you do LITERALLY get more federal taxes than you pay. Northern states are operating at a taxation loss because of the Southern/red states.

I wonder what would happen if we were to pull that, and you had to do it on your own. Welfare is more common in the red states. Crime is higher. Median wage is lower. Education is worse. Teen pregnancy and abortion is higher/ And that is WITH extra funding to help hold it all together. How would you do if we pulled it?

I have the suspicion that you would drop off the developed nation list fairly quickly.

Who do you think is going to benefit more from this healthcare plan? The red states, without a doubt and by a huge margin.

Jumping to abortion again, no, it is not immaculate conception. It is the fact that even sterilization sometimes fails. Even IUD's fail. There is no perfect birth control short of removal of sexual organs.

There is also a lack of sex education, so people don't use their birth control properly. Condoms can be 98% effective, but in typical use in the US they are only 85% effective. Hormonal birth control with perfect use is 99.6%, but in practice is under 92%. In places where they DO teach real sex ed, guess what? The abortion rate is drastically lower!

If you want to lower abortion rates, then teach people how to use condoms.

A heartbeat does not make something A life. It makes it alive. But not a life. I had an enormous cyst once, and it had no heart, but it did have an independent blood flow network. Is that a life? By your definition, probably. It had an independent structure of sustenance. So was killing it murder?

No. Because it was no sentient, it could not survive outside my body, and didn't meet any of the long list of qualifiers for a life.

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

You have answered your own question, the ones getting subsidized are the ones taking my money. The whole belief that I give up my money to the government then they give it back to me for my own good is ridiculous, imo. They can never give back all that they take, since we have to pay the middleman, it makes more sense to me to leave my money in my paycheck and allow me to help myself with all my own money.



I think you will find that other states are the ones deciding how much federal money we get in this state, through their senators and congressmen/women. This was my favorite part of the confederate constitution, it made it illegal to take money from one state to do improvements in another state. Why is it that the northern states own 90% plus of their state land at the same time they vote to take more land from the use of the western states. How about an ammendment that if your congressperson votes to take property away from another state they have to give up that much of their own state. Why is it only the western states that need its land preserved?



I guarantee the states you are complaining about would survive without the federal funding, while the populous states never could. It has happened before in our history, the north couldnt survive without the south, so they invaded and conquered, and that was after the north had to beg the south to help them get rid of the british in the north which they could of never done without them. I wonder if the south would have helped if they could have seen that the same freedom they were helping their fellow countrymen of the north gain, would be put to use in their demise not even a hundred years later.



Sounds like you have a problem with your money being spent on things you dont agree with also.



Good try, but it is your representatives that are voting to send your money to us, it is not us taking the money from you. If you dont like us taking your money, how can you like taking our money?



Everything in their power? What do we have, a problem with immaculate conception in this country?



Baby had a heartbeat before, baby has no heartbeat after, isnt that killing a baby?



I guess those smart people havent been taught that contraception is not 100%, so relying on contraception to prevent childbirth 100% of the time is ridiculous and illogical. But as I have said before, keep your taxes, and we will keep ours.