A question on Christian Scripture.

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06-17-2010, 02:33 AM
paco
[QUOTE=kevint;610918]KJV
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

ESV
48(CF) You therefore must be(CG) perfect,(CH) as your heavenly Father is perfect.

NIV
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

YLT
48ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.
NCV
48 So you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

QUOTE]

I believe you are interpreting the word incorrectly, it does not mean without sin.

<TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="50%">Original Word</TD><TD width="50%">Word Origin</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%">teleioß</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%">from (5056)</TD></TR><TR><TD width="50%">Transliterated Word</TD><TD width="50%">TDNT Entry</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%">Teleios</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%">8:67,1161</TD></TR><TR><TD width="50%">Phonetic Spelling</TD><TD width="50%">Parts of Speech</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%">tel'-i-os<SCRIPT type=text/javascript src="http://www.biblestudytools.com/resource/javascript/lexiconaudio.js"></SCRIPT><OBJECT class=inlineimg title="Big Grin" border=0 alt="" classid="clsid:D</OBJECT></TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%">Adjective </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Definition</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. 1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
06-17-2010, 03:16 AM
kevint

What is sin?

The lines do not require the word perfect, teleios, or sinless.

It says: Be ye as your Father is.

Sin is very much the feeling of being incomplete, yet unfinished. We look for things to make us complete.

:soapbox:Why is it necessary to imagine that there is some powerful evil spirit out there waiting to trick us? It has been said the greatness of a people can be seen in the power of their enemies. Sometimes in history we see that the victors in battle have greatly exaggerated the abilities of their enemies. It is hard to be a hero if you return saying they were all old men with sticks. This serves only the ego, to make one seem more powerful, a great and mighty warrior.

Just like Charles Manson said (approximately quoted): "The Devil? If you want to see the devil, just let me out on that highway." All of his wild imaginings and supposed great purpose essentially boils down to a damaged child and revenge for a lost recording contract. and psychosis.

For me at least I see that I am my own worst enemy. I want to be warm in winter and cool in summer. I want to be somewhere else and get there fast. I want to look sharp, act smart and get paid twice just for being so cool to hang out with. If I buy this and do that and wait for the future to hurry up it will be just like that. Maybe even be king of the world.

Aren't those the things that keep us from realizing who and what we are, the depth of mystery and awe that is life and the ultimate perfection that is simply Being?
06-17-2010, 05:37 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by paco

Well, Where do you see i said the blame was on the devil, I said we are influenced, Just as man's original sin Eve was only influnced by the devil and Adam was only influenced by Eve, both had free will and chose.
Again this is off topic so let'sallow the post to stay on track. Pm if you wish.

being influenced by the devil.

the devil made me do it.

Sorry, still a cop-out no matter how you dress it up. For any man with freewill , he can choose to do evil, or not. Blaming it on the devil is weak.
06-17-2010, 06:03 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

being influenced by the devil.

Blaming it on the devil is weak.

Nobody is blaming it on the devil, we have to take responsibility for our part, this is why there is confession as well as repentance. Thank God for His forgiveness.
06-17-2010, 06:04 PM
gandrw

Being influenced and the devil made me do it are to different things in my opinion.

We are influenced to do many things and make many choices but we are not made to do them. Like buying a car we may find that an affective commercial or an endorsement may sway are dissuasion to buy one over another. No one forces us to sing on the dotted line.

If there where no negative influences in the world then would there be any negative actions? If there where no adversity to over come would there be any victory?
You can't win a battle if there is no one to fight against.

You can't have free will if there is no choice to make. And those choices are always influenced one way or another. When I make a wrong choice I don't say the devil made me do it. I know it was me that made the choice.

Yes saying the devil made me do it is a cop-out. I haven't heard any one here say that though. They have said that there is negative influence in the world. If there where no negative influence in the world than there would be no sin.

We are the ones that make the choice and there for are at fault for making the wrong choice. That is why God sent Jesus to die for our sins to give us the gift of salvation. We have the free will to choose wether or not to accept that gift.
06-17-2010, 08:01 PM
JimmyHAD

Putting belief or faith in God aside for a moment to consider belief in the devil. Satan, the bible says, was the most beautiful angel that God made. Cast out of heaven because of pride, he is the enemy of God and man...... according to the bible. So to believe this I suppose it requires belief in the bible's veracity.

For some cafeteria style belief is also common. Accepting what they like and ignoring or rejecting the rest. There is no doubt that there are contradictions and perhaps mistakes within the bible but I personally don't throw the baby out with the bath water on account of human error. The scriptures were transmitted orally for centuries before they were transcribed.

Many individual scribes copied them until the printing press came along. So there are variations in texts, in gospel narratives and in the other books. Questions of authorship and the selection of the canon. In spite of all of that I believe the basic tenants to be true and correct. That there is a devil with a demons is one of them. That there is evil in the world is a certainty no matter what we believe.
06-17-2010, 09:06 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Putting belief or faith in God aside for a moment to consider belief in the devil. Satan, the bible says, was the most beautiful angel that God made. Cast out of heaven because of pride, he is the enemy of God and man...... according to the bible. So to believe this I suppose it requires belief in the bible's veracity.

Satan was cast from heaven?

Sorry, but I don't see where any scripture has made the definitive link between Lucifer, the serpent of Eden and Satan.
All of those links have beeen made by the Catholic church.

Near as I can ascertain, they are 3 separate entities.

And let's not forget, Lucifer, the Morning Star, was not cast from heaven because of evil or vanity. He was cast because as a divine being created of fire saw no reason to bow and worship the talking apes that were cast of dirt and dust. He was also not alone in this position. I believe the Quran identifies 1/3 of the angels following Lucifer in this. That's a pretty significant number of angels. Not to mention any that agreed with Lucifer but chose to "suck it up" to avoid expulsion.

It's like me demanding you to worship the ants that crawl at your feet. Would you if commanded?
06-17-2010, 09:18 PM
JimmyHAD

:OTSince we are going off topic and it is Kevin's thread I will be brief. Here is a quick overview. Draw your own conclusions, I know that you will. :)
06-18-2010, 12:11 AM
kevint

Whether we might overcome the conditioned mind or a supernatural life devouring demon does not especially matter. Victory is victory.

Just as dead is dead. It will not matter to your rotting corpse if it came by microscopic bacteria or super-sonic 50 caliber exploding bullet.

where is it that Lucifer tempts us? Does he stop you on the way to your car or with annoying phone calls as you sit down to supper?

It is said that Satan is the ruler, god of this world. Beyond the literal belief in the devil what could we point to as the dominate factor that has brought human society and this planet to its present state?

Could you agree that it is the thinking human mind?

A little while ago we were talking about choice. Which one of you would choose pain over joy, poverty over abundance. For as long as we remain identified with our thoughts, choice remains an illusion. What you choose will continue to be a product of your conditioned mind. This is why it seems that some people do choose pain, or to remain poor.

James 4

1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
=======

Double Minded?
06-18-2010, 02:19 AM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

where is it that Lucifer tempts us? Does he stop you on the way to your car or with annoying phone calls as you sit down to supper?

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has set up temptation for me. If I don't have faith in anything else I have faith in that. The closer you come to Christ the more the devil will try and circumvent that. If you begin to come close it will happen, I guarantee it. Kevin, since you are so fond of quoting scripture I would draw your attention to;

Matthew 18

1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

If you're of an intellectual bent you may eventually get there but a little child who is not filled with skepticism and trying to pick the scriptures apart will get there quicker. I'll also leave you with this quote from William Shakespeare, a man who had a way with words, "The devil can site scripture for his own purpose! An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek." [Merchant Of Venice] :)
06-18-2010, 01:13 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has set up temptation for me. If I don't have faith in anything else I have faith in that. The closer you come to Christ the more the devil will try and circumvent that. If you begin to come close it will happen, I guarantee it.

And how exactly did Satan tempt you?
06-18-2010, 01:29 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

And how exactly did Satan tempt you?

Taking the bait ..... myriad ways, lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and desires of the mind as noted in Ephesians 2. There is also pride, envy, sloth etcetera. For a more complete overview see this Wiki page here.
06-18-2010, 02:58 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Taking the bait ..... myriad ways, lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and desires of the mind as noted in Ephesians 2. There is also pride, envy, sloth etcetera. For a more complete overview see this Wiki page here.

and none of these things ever happened before you found Him?

Sorry Jimmy. Not buying the "tempted by Satan" argument. None of the issues listed are not part of the human psyche that have been with us since clay was formed into a Man.

You have just become more cognizant of your emotions.
06-18-2010, 03:57 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

and none of these things ever happened before you found Him?

Sorry Jimmy. Not buying the "tempted by Satan" argument. None of the issues listed are not part of the human psyche that have been with us since clay was formed into a Man.

You have just become more cognizant of your emotions.

No need for the 'sorry'. I have my belief system and you have yours. I am not intending to convert you to mine so there is no argument.
06-18-2010, 04:18 PM
Sailor

Gentlemen,

Sorry to comment as a non-religious person, but just have to say that this has been most interesting conversation here to read and lurk. I have to thank you all this far for being capable of civilized discussion without turning such a hot subject into mud throwing.
I do not believe i've seen too many forums with a gentlemen like you all.
06-18-2010, 06:40 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor

Gentlemen,

Sorry to comment as a non-religious person, but just have to say that this has been most interesting conversation here to read and lurk. I have to thank you all this far for being capable of civilized discussion without turning such a hot subject into mud throwing.
I do not believe i've seen too many forums with a gentlemen like you all.

A big part is to not realize that someone with differing beliefs from your own is not a personal attack.
06-19-2010, 03:26 AM
kevint

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has set up temptation for me. If I don't have faith in anything else I have faith in that. The closer you come to Christ the more the devil will try and circumvent that. If you begin to come close it will happen, I guarantee it. Kevin, since you are so fond of quoting scripture I would draw your attention to;

Matthew 18

1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

If you're of an intellectual bent you may eventually get there but a little child who is not filled with skepticism and trying to pick the scriptures apart will get there quicker. I'll also leave you with this quote from William Shakespeare, a man who had a way with words, "The devil can site scripture for his own purpose! An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek." [Merchant Of Venice] :)

Am I an evil soul; picking the scriptures apart?
This appears to be what you suggest. That is okay if what follows is deeper awareness of true reality.

Admittedly, I did omit a word. Which was to show that even without, the statement remained weighty and intact. However I have not wrestled the scripture to bend it to my meaning, so that it says other than what it says plainly and directly.

then why did you say there is no Devil, thus diminishing the victory of Christ?

I did not say that there is no devil. However, there is no perception of the devil other than that which occurs in the mind. Whereas the perception of God arises beyond mind, beyond thought. It is as I said earlier; a perception of the eternal, even though everything we observe is temporary.

----

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me.

What is the cross? It was a very public, cruel, painful means of execution. It must cause a lot of suffering to die on a cross. Yet what makes it such a powerful spiritual symbol is that it was transformed through the grace of God from evil to good. (From suffering to ascension)
As you know when the apostle's found out that Jesus was to be crucified they were pretty upset, when he died they left wondering what was that about? It was the worst thing that could have happened as they saw it.

36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
(This is surrendering to the situation whatever it may be. This is acceptance. In this sense the words acceptance and surrender are given spiritual meanings it does not mean to give up or stop trying.)

I must say this was quite a worry for me. What if the worst thing that will happen to me has not happened yet. What if I must endure more suffering. Should I get closer to God and have the devil test me further and more intensely? I don't want that.
Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? ... But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given unto you.
I have been sitting here for a long time this evening. It started to sound like a hidden agenda coming to fruition as what I was writing was not in strict agreement with teaching as it is in Christian Churches. I am no teacher, preacher; continuing in a direction which had already began to creep in is inappropriate in light of my original post. So I delete the rest of what I have written and replace it with this apology for any offense.
I trust that you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
06-19-2010, 12:28 PM
ScottGoodman

I have to agree with Jimmy on this one as well. My wife and I were recently talking about how frustrating it is to be getting closer to God and learning his word more and more, IE maturing, and having that danged ole' Satan always lurking in the midst. I remembe back when I was a "spiritual" person, but not a Christian and I have to say that Satan didn't really need spend much time on me because he "had" me. Again, I'm with you Jimmy on believing that the thoughts are sins & my biggest weakenss now. As I "mature", I am slowly, I repeat "slowly" getting better as my faith grows. I just feel as though I am failing Him more than I praise Him...it's a viscious circle. I am simply SO THANKFUL he's still here with me as I grow, stumble, and grow some more...
06-19-2010, 01:00 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

and none of these things ever happened before you found Him?

Sorry Jimmy. Not buying the "tempted by Satan" argument. None of the issues listed are not part of the human psyche that have been with us since clay was formed into a Man.

You have just become more cognizant of your emotions.

Havent you read the story of Eve in the garden, or Judas at the last supper, havent you read the book of Job. or the gospels account of Jesus in the wilderness.. If you read the Gospels you will find out that there are 4 areas of Jesus' ministry and they would be as follows;teaching, healing, miracles and the casting out of demons.
06-19-2010, 02:36 PM
gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

I believe God created us in his image like scripture says and I believe God is without fault or sin he is Prefect. So if he created us in his image why would he put sin in our nature? I believe he gave us free will to fallow him. because that gives him joy to have his creation chose to love and worship him as there creator. That free will allowed Eve to make the dissuasion to disobey and sin when tempted by the snake who I believe was Satan in the form of a snake. But I do not believe there was sin in Adam and Eve till that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

and none of these things ever happened before you found Him?

Sorry Jimmy. Not buying the "tempted by Satan" argument. None of the issues listed are not part of the human psyche that have been with us since clay was formed into a Man.

You have just become more cognizant of your emotions.
06-19-2010, 03:01 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

:OT
The question of 'original sin' is one that has been debated for more than a thousand years and is continuing to be debated today. Matter of fact I'm reading Jonathan Edwards on Original Sin at work for the past few weeks. Here is a Wiki article on the differing viewpoints. I'm with Reverend Edwards and the Calvinist position. YMMV.
06-19-2010, 03:31 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Havent you read the story of Eve in the garden, or Judas at the last supper, havent you read the book of Job. or the gospels account of Jesus in the wilderness.. If you read the Gospels you will find out that there are 4 areas of Jesus' ministry and they would be as follows;teaching, healing, miracles and the casting out of demons.

Do you really think Judas was such an evil person? Really?

I am one that believes that Judas was one of Jesus' closest friends and disciples. It was Jesus that asked Judas to turn him in. Only Judas loved Jesus enough to begin the series of events that would allow Him to be crucified that he could rise again.

Had Judas not turned in Jesus, there would have never been a resurrection.

No resurrection, no salvation. No salvation, no religion and we would not be having this discussion 2000 years later.

No, this is not written in scripture. It is one of those things that is between the lines.
06-19-2010, 04:16 PM
gandrw

Sorry to go off topic. Maybe we should start another thread to discuss things further that are off topic from Kevin's original post.
06-19-2010, 05:48 PM
JBHoren

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

The question arises from the metaphor of the following King James scripture: 1Corinthians 3:1
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

[snip]

I might further suggest to guide your thoughts consider this, which sounds to be a direct command* requiring a well balanced meal of solid food :John 18:11 


Jesus was a Jew. He was born a Jew, lived his entire life as a Jew, and died a Jew. Everything he said and did was within the context of being a Jew. If he spoke about "milk and meat", it probably had to do with the laws of Kashrut (כשרות); specifically, על תבשל גדי בחלב אמו (don't cook a kid in its mother's milk). Hence, no combining meat and dairy at the same meal... no "cheeseburger in Paradise".

Can "meat and milk" be used as parable? Certainly. Just as milk (dairy) is more easily digested than meat (and the laws of Kashrut state that meat can be eaten after dairy, but not the opposite), so to one should begin with simpler ideas, before moving to "meatier" ones, etc.

Jesus, however, was first a Torah-abiding Jew, and only second a theosophist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

If you look at the 10 commandments you will notice that they are divided into two categories, the first category concerns your relationship to God, the second concerns your relationship with your neighbor (mankind). Someone once asked Jesus which of the commandments were the most important and Jesus told him that if he "loved the Lord his God with all his heart and with all his soul and loved his neighbor as he loved himself" that he had fulfilled all of the commandments of Moses as well as those of the prophets." If you can do these two seemingly simple things you "will go and sin no more."

There are 613 commandments in the Torah; some are positive (do this), and some are negative (don't do that); some are בין אדם למקום (between man and God), and some are בין אדם לחברו (between man and his fellow man); some are to be done daily (prayer), some weekly (Sabbath), some seasonally (holidays), some only once (circumcise your son), and some never (agricultural laws applying only in Israel). All of them are of equal importance.

If someone asked Jesus "which of the commandments were the most important", Jesus would have realized that either this person was "trolling", or a simpleton. In either case, the answer attributed to him is, quite simply, the concatenation of two verses from the Torah (verses which a Jew, in daily prayers, repeats several times each day): ואהבת את ה' אלהיך בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך ([a positive commandment to] love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might) and ואהבת לרעך כמוך ([a positive commandment to] love your neighbor as yourself).

Although the Torah specifically states that there are seven commandments given to all of Mankind, the two aforementioned commandments certainly form the most minimal and all-encompassing moral framework for living one's life.

Jesus, however, was not a "minimalist".
06-19-2010, 07:33 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

I believe God created us in his image like scripture says and I believe God is without fault or sin he is Prefect. So if he created us in his image why would he put sin in our nature? I believe he gave us free will to fallow him. because that gives him joy to have his creation chose to love and worship him as there creator. That free will allowed Eve to make the dissuasion to disobey and sin when tempted by the snake who I believe was Satan in the form of a snake. But I do not believe there was sin in Adam and Eve till that point.

He created us with a full range of emotions.

He is full of emotion. Old Testament scripture is full of examples of negative emotion on the part of Him. Anger. Spitefulness. Revenge. Jealousy, etc.

The story of Cain and Abel shows us the first example of jealousy, and yet no mention of Satan being behind it. It was entirely generated from within.

So here we are, 6000 years later having the same set of emotions. So no, I do not believe that the occurence of these emotions is a temptation on the part of Satan. I feel that some are just more cognizant of the emotion than others and why it is wrong.
06-19-2010, 09:02 PM
kevint

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

I believe God created us in his image like scripture says and I believe God is without fault or sin he is Prefect. So if he created us in his image why would he put sin in our nature? I believe he gave us free will to fallow him. because that gives him joy to have his creation chose to love and worship him as there creator. That free will allowed Eve to make the dissuasion to disobey and sin when tempted by the snake who I believe was Satan in the form of a snake. But I do not believe there was sin in Adam and Eve till that point.

It was the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

We can be sure that it was no accident, and just as surely not really a choice. If it happened as described in Genesis, then most assuredly an All Knowing God could see far enough to know what "choice" would be arrived at.
Isaiah 4610Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Consider this.
Matthew 12

33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

These words to not appear accidentally or by coincidence.

By personal belief is the Bible is not perfect, undiluted. When presented as such it is not understood. No other religion is perfect either.

If you consider that "all things work together for the good...." Then maybe some reading in bhagavad gita, and some popularized quantum physics will do you some good too.

I am not hoping to change anyone's belief. I have not read any of these scriptures for years. I do feel drawn to certain words as they crop up in our discussion as I recall their occurrences within the Bible. I search for them and bring them to you like a good servant would. ;)
06-19-2010, 11:32 PM
paco

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

I

By personal belief is the Bible is not perfect, undiluted. When presented as such it is not understood. No other religion is perfect either.

If you consider that "all things work together for the good...." Then maybe some reading in bhagavad gita, and some popularized quantum physics will do you some good too.

I am not hoping to change anyone's belief. I have not read any of these scriptures for years. I do feel drawn to certain words as they crop up in our discussion as I recall their occurrences within the Bible. I search for them and bring them to you like a good servant would. ;)

As stated before the foundation of christianity is what one believes of Jesus Christ. If one dosen't believe He is Who He said He is he cannot claim to be a Christian as such a person would be calling Him a liar, madman or conman. If he does believe Jesus is who He claimed to be[GOD] then one sould belive that what he says is true. Scripture says all scripture is GOD breathed

Passage 2 Timothy 3:16:
16(A)All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

King James Version (KJV)

Passage 2 Peter 1:21:

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

so should we say that GOD is NOT perfect since it is being said that the Bible is not perfect?

Just my logic .
06-20-2010, 12:05 AM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by paco

so should we say that GOD is NOT perfect since it is being said that the Bible is not perfect?

Just my logic .

Apples and oranges, my friend.

The Bible may have been inspired by Him, but it was written and rewritten by man.

We really do not need to have that discussion of the errors in translation that have occured over the past 3000 years.

Man is not perfect. For if he was, he would be divine and His equals. We are creatures created in an image, but not an exact reproduction.
06-20-2010, 12:17 AM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

Do you really think Judas was such an evil person? Really?

In the gospel of John, chapter 12 it tells the story of Jesus being anointed with a costly perfumed ointment and Judas asked if the money spent would not be better off being spent on the poor, he asked this not because he cared for the poor, but because he carried the money box for the disciples and frequently stole from it.

In the Gospel of Luke chapter 21;37 - chapter 22:6 we find out that Judas has determined to betray Jesus and at that moment Satan entered into him. In other Gospel accounts Jesus at the last supper(Passover) tells Judas to go and do what he has already decided upon and at that moment Satan entered into him.
06-20-2010, 01:08 AM
kevint

Dear Paco; can you further extend your logic to the creation of man? For as you have said man cannot be perfect; is it then that God cannot be perfect? You did just say that man cannot be perfect even though it was written clearly to be complete; perfect as your Father in heaven is complete; perfect.

let's look a few verses above your quote:

2Timothy1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the form of godliness but denying its power
You can argue that it means to be perfect in the coming glory; however that sounds like denying the power; as the Kingdom of God is within you.

Can you do me a favor; what words are used here in its original language? 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,...

now lets just move things to a more convenient order
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

that sounds clearer to me, how bout you?
06-20-2010, 02:54 AM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

In the gospel of John, chapter 12 it tells the story of Jesus being anointed with a costly perfumed ointment and Judas asked if the money spent would not be better off being spent on the poor, he asked this not because he cared for the poor, but because he carried the money box for the disciples and frequently stole from it.

In the Gospel of Luke chapter 21;37 - chapter 22:6 we find out that Judas has determined to betray Jesus and at that moment Satan entered into him. In other Gospel accounts Jesus at the last supper(Passover) tells Judas to go and do what he has already decided upon and at that moment Satan entered into him.

So we can thank Satan for salvation?

Because you see, The Christ needed to die to be resurrected.

So who made the plan for it to happen? Jesus or Satan?
06-20-2010, 06:38 AM
nun2sharp

The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy and that was the plan he had for Jesus and is the same plan he has for everyone else. Christ came that we should have life and have it abundantly. Yes Satan is responsible for the death of Jesus, but he is not responsible for salvation, he cant save himself as Jesus did through his resurrection.
06-20-2010, 07:22 AM
JBHoren

שטן (Satan) appears for the first time in Deuteronomy 22:22 -- ויתיצב מלאך ה' בדרך, לשטן לו (and God placed an angel in the path, to 'stumble' him [Bilam, riding on his ass]).

Satan is an "interrogator"; the "prosecuting attorney", if you will, in the בית דין של מעלה (the High Court of Heaven).

Furthermore, Judaism teaches that each of us has two יצרים (inclinations): יצר הטוב and יצר הרע (good and evil inclinations, respectively). The רמב"ם (Maimonides) taught that when we, in our God-given freedom of choice, choose to follow our "good inclination", God strengthens our ability to continue doing so. Conversely, when we follow our "evil inclination"...

And the Talmud teaches us that, despite what "logic" might dictate, one who tries to destroy his "evil inclination" leaves himself without an opposing force with which to contend... "Character is built through adversity".
06-20-2010, 02:13 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy and that was the plan he had for Jesus and is the same plan he has for everyone else. Christ came that we should have life and have it abundantly. Yes Satan is responsible for the death of Jesus, but he is not responsible for salvation, he cant save himself as Jesus did through his resurrection.

IMO, this is trying to have it both ways.

If Jesus is the Son of God, he would have intimate knowledge of what would be required for salvation.

It must have been his plan all along. For if it was not his plan, then he could not be the son of God. He would only be a man. Only a prophet and not messiah.

To include Satan in any of this would mean that Satan caused the events for salvation. According to biblical apologists, Satan can time travel (as the explanation for Mithraism and Zoroastrianism). So he would know exactly what would happen if he arranged to have Jesus killed. He would know that he would be creating a new religion.

So, if Satan arranged to have Jesus killed, knowing it would create a new religion, connecting the dots would tell me Christianity is a false religion to take eople away from God. After all, it would be a religion created by Satan.

--OR-- Jesus arranged to have himself crucified.

So which is it? Is it the religion created by Jesus? Or the religion created by Satan?
06-20-2010, 02:18 PM
nun2sharp

Where in the bible does it say Satan can time travel? He is not all knowing, all seeing or omnipresent. It sounds as if Mithraism and Zoroastrianism are trying to have it both ways.There is no religion created by Jesus, religions are of the devil to keep men busy and away from the truth. What Jesus did was to reconcile the differences(the sin issue) between God and man so that we could have redemption and an open pathway to the Father. That we may have life and have it abundantly. As for who crucified Jesus? All perfection had to do was come to the world and be innocent, the evil of mankind under Satans influence did the rest.
06-20-2010, 03:23 PM
paco
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint

Dear Paco; can you further extend your logic to the creation of man?
Genesis 2: 7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

For as you have said man cannot be perfect; is it then that God cannot be perfect?
I do not recall saying that as i do believe a believer will become complete,[perfect], at his ressurection. Which means not all mankind.
You did just say that man cannot be perfect even though it was written clearly to be complete;
Again i do not recall saying man cannot be perfect, he can through
SANCTIFICATION
The process of being made holy resulting in a changed life-style for the believer. The English word sanctification comes from the Latin santificatio, meaning the act/process of making holy, consecrated. In the Greek New Testament, the root hag- is the basis of hagiasmos, “holiness,” “consecration,” “sanctification”; hagiosyne, “holiness”; hagiotes, “holiness”; hagiazo “to sanctify,” “consecrate,” “treat as holy,” “purify”; and hagios, “holy,” “saint.”
Sanctification is most clearly seen in Hebrews. Christ's crucifixion makes possible the moving of the sinner from the profane to the holy (that is, sanctifies, makes holy) so that the believer can become a part of the temple where God dwells and is worshiped (Hebrews 13:11-16; Hebrews 2:9-11; Hebrews 10:10,Hebrews 10:14,Hebrews 10:29). Paul (Romans 15:16; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) and Peter (1 Peter 1:2) both affirmed the work of the Holy Spirit in conversion as a sanctification, a making the believer holy so as to come before God in acceptance
perfect as your Father in heaven is complete; perfect.

let's look a few verses above your quote:

2Timothy1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the form of godliness but denying its power
You can argue that it means to be perfect in the coming glory; however that sounds like denying the power; as the Kingdom of God is within you.
Excuse my ignorance, but i do not understand what your getting at.

Can you do me a favor; what words are used here in its original language? 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,...<TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR bgColor=#838b83><TD width=200>Strong's Number: 3956</TD><TD class=toolboxgreek width=100 align=middle>pa=v</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR bgColor=#c1cdc1><TD width=150 colSpan=2>Original Word</TD><TD width=150 colSpan=2>Word Origin</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD class=toolboxgreek vAlign=top width=150>pa=v</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>including all the forms of declension</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#c1cdc1><TD width=150 colSpan=2>Transliterated Word</TD><TD width=150 colSpan=2>Phonetic Spelling</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>Pas</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>pas http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#c1cdc1><TD width=150 colSpan=2>Parts of Speech</TD><TD width=150 colSpan=2>TDNT</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>Adjective</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>5:886,795</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#838b83><TD width=300 colSpan=4> Definition</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD width=300 colSpan=3>
individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
collectively
some of all types
<TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR bgColor=#838b83><TD width=200>Strong's Number: 1124</TD><TD class=toolboxgreek width=100 align=middle>grafh/</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

now lets just move things to a more convenient order
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

that sounds clearer to me, how bout you?
I just quoted that above showing scripture to be of God not man.

It seems as though we will not be able to come to a mutual agreement since we seem to have a basis from different authorities. I'm not saying this sarcastically, but I do not know what you give authority to.

I give Scripture the Final authority and do not question it, now i will research something that seems to be contradictory, but believing it can't be because it is of an all knowing God i must find wiser counsel to rectify this contradiction.

I do not see how i can claim to believe in a Eternal, all knowing, all powerful God and not believe everything He says as Truth. To do so would be saying He is a liar and if He is a liar why would i follow Him.
If I were not to believe that scripture is not totally true how do I know what parts are or are not, what do I use as final authority?
So it is either authoritative or not, I chose to believe it is.

Enjoyed the conversation
06-20-2010, 04:42 PM
kevint

It does say All Scripture. I just don't know enough about the history to tell you what was left out(or added)- what about the so-called gnostic gospels. ; or even more stretchy of definitions, all holy books.

Suggestions that sinlessness must wait until the final return of Christ; based upon those related scriptures I have shared so far, seems to me to be denying the power of conversion.

romans3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

(this is a big one)
Philippians25Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

As I read this again it still sounds the same. when we adopt the mind of Christ we are in the form of God.
06-20-2010, 04:51 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by paco

If I were not to believe that scripture is not totally true how do I know what parts are or are not, what do I use as final authority?

Going back to the adversary. I read early on in the path that their were contradictions in the gospels and other parts of the bible. In the nineteenth century exegesis showed that some of the books of the bible may not have been written by the authors who were credited with those books.

Then I stumbled upon the author Bart Ehrman and read a few of his books. He is a university professor in religious studies. Fluent in the original languages and a specialist in the study or the early manuscripts. He started out a born again evangelical and became an agnostic as a result of his studies.

This really shook my faith in the scriptures. I was torn between wanting to believe and not wanting to be a chump. This is not new. In 1st Corinthians 15 Paul the Apostle addresses those who were being told that there is no resurrection. He says, paraphrasing, if there is no resurrection we are among men most miserable.

Then I was in another thread on this topic some time back and I had occasion to type out a portion of the Reverend Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones introduction to his "Studies In the Sermon On the Mount." One of the best books ever on the topic by one of the greatest exegetical preachers who ever lived. It occured to me that MLJ was a genius and that he had read all of the criticism that I had and then some. Yet he could still say,"All we have is this book, it is our final authority."

Pondering that I came to a peace with myself. I realized that although their may be contradictions and textual questions the message was there and I could have faith that it was true. From that point on I have had no issues with the question. The peace that passes all understanding came to me. Jesus said that we must come as a little child and leave the skepticism behind. The adversary may be responsible for the confusion and I won't be a chump for him.
06-20-2010, 06:25 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Where in the bible does it say Satan can time travel? He is not all knowing, all seeing or omnipresent. It sounds as if Mithraism and Zoroastrianism are trying to have it both ways.There is no religion created by Jesus, religions are of the devil to keep men busy and away from the truth. What Jesus did was to reconcile the differences(the sin issue) between God and man so that we could have redemption and an open pathway to the Father. That we may have life and have it abundantly. As for who crucified Jesus? All perfection had to do was come to the world and be innocent, the evil of mankind under Satans influence did the rest.

I said àccording to biblical apologists`

Satan time travelling is the excuse given for why Mithraism predates Christianity by many, many years and yet Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25th, was the son of God and was destined to become a messiah.

Funny how that works.

And I am still have an issue with the evils of mankind being a result of the devil. Completely absolves people of wrongdoing by blaming their choices on someone else.
06-20-2010, 06:34 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

And I am still have an issue with the evils of mankind being a result of the devil. Completely absolves people of wrongdoing by blaming their choices on someone else.

Satans influence does not absolve you from anything, you can not blame the devil for your wrongdoing, your sin is yours and that is why he does what he can to influence you. Sin separates you from God, Jesus paid for your sin that you can be reconciled to the Father, negating the outcome of Satans influence.

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