Thread: A question on Christian Scripture.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I've said pretty much all I have to say on this subject for a while, but I'd like to take a moment to say thanks to everyone for a very interesting thread. An additional thanks to those who Jimmy referenced in his last post. I know that several members here think we're nuts, but to let us hash this out amongst ourselves here in the "Nut house" is very cool.

Thanks All!

Thank you for your generosity Paul.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Paco, thanks for the post. I'm assuming that you were referencing me when you made the comment about earning salvation. Saying that being obedient is "earning" anything is specious on its face. I tell my daughter if she does the dishes with me, I'll give her $10 a month. She's 6 and is in the way. She's not earning anything, but I made her a promise and when she does her part, I do mine.

God has done the same thing for us. He sent his son who was made a propitiation for our sins. He then said, believe on him, and be obedient, and we'll be given a home in Heaven. He didn't say, "I'm going to pick and choose who I want to be 'saved', but I'm going to give the whole world a document that tells them that every one has the choice of being saved or not." It is our choice. God isn't making us, and he's not impeding us. It is our choice.

Us believing and being obedient doesn't qualify as "saved through works". That's a ridiculous argument. However, doing what you are told to do and getting the promised reward is still Grace. Jesus said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that doesn't believe shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). That ties in to what was said in John 1 "To all who received him, to those who believe on his name, he gave the right to become children of God". You see, believe is only part of the game. You have the right to become a child of God when you believe. But before you are obedient, you aren't. Cornelius (Acts 10), Phillipian Jailor (Acts 16), Paul (Acts 9), Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8), etc.... I could keep going.... are good examples of this principle

No Sir, It was not in reference to your post, just the general statement that you cannot earn salvation. In other words, Good Works are not a condition for salvation, but a result of salvation, as you have said obedience and love toward our fellow man. Also just because someone is doing good works does not mean they are saved. Only God knows the heart.

Originally Posted by kevint

Thank you for you input Paco. I trust these questions will not cause you to repent of your participation

Let's say, for the moment at least, that I am unconcerned with Heaven. Is there more to the meaning of Salvation- beyond the reward of heaven?
Yes, a relationship with Him, ability to make wiser decisions with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In Philippians 2 quoted in post 36 there is a very big question there which seems to point out that just as Jesus was in the form of God, that we too have, or at least can have, that same attribute. So it seems that the answer is Yes, he was god incarnate, and so are we.
I have to disagree with the last portion of the statement, we can be like him in word and deed but, never be GOD as He Is.

In fact he says we will( I think this means we can, or should be able to) do greater things(miracles) than he.

Do you mean by perfection that we would be sinless?
If so, why would Jesus say sin no more if it cannot be done? Maybe it takes a number of steps / little by little. that's okay.

I would take this to mean intentional sin, don't walk or live in sin.

Originally Posted by Desdinova

The most evil spirits are those called choice, free will and decision.

The evil in the world comes from the choices we make as we have been given free will.

It's a little convenient to blame the world we live in on the Devil when it is the choices of individuals and collective society that got us here.

I agree that the evil comes from the choices, however the choices have been infulenced by the spritual conflict ., but this is off the topic the OP started.

Originally Posted by paco

I agree that the evil comes from the choices, however the choices have been infulenced by the spritual conflict ., but this is off the topic the OP started.

Sorry friend, but blaming the devil for the evils of man is a church cop-out.


When someone here lists a razor on eBay wanting a minimum price, is it the fault of the devil that they are being greedy?

When we speak of smelling great and having BBS and talk of nice clothes, is it the fault of the devil that we are vain?


These choices we make. Not the devil. This is the free will we were given. To blamer our choices on someone else is a slap in the face to Him.

^KJV
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

ESV
48^(CF) You therefore must be^(CG) perfect,^(CH) as your heavenly Father is perfect.

NIV
⁴⁸Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

YLT
⁴⁸ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.
NCV
⁴⁸ So you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Oh! yeah? Other than checking to see if such talks are allowed or not, i have not worried or wondered what any non participant thinks of the subject. But if they are reading may as well read this too:
²⁴ “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: ²⁵ and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
²⁶ “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: ²⁷ and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Originally Posted by Desdinova

Sorry friend, but blaming the devil for the evils of man is a church cop-out.


When someone here lists a razor on eBay wanting a minimum price, is it the fault of the devil that they are being greedy?

When we speak of smelling great and having BBS and talk of nice clothes, is it the fault of the devil that we are vain?


These choices we make. Not the devil. This is the free will we were given. To blamer our choices on someone else is a slap in the face to Him.

To deny that he/we have an adversary(the devil) would be a slap in His face and would minimize the victory He won at the cross. Yes we have free will, yes we make up our own minds, but what influences the decisions we make, like Eve in the Garden or Judas just prior to the betrayal there is an evil that wishes to influence our decisions in order to keep us separate from the love of our God. I believe a quick study of the two examples above as well as Ephesians chapter 6 would give us a proper perspective.

Originally Posted by kevint

NIV
⁴⁸Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I think the admonition is to strive for perfection rather than an expectation that we might achieve perfection.

Then let us read Galatians 2:20
²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (It is no longer I who live but Christ)

1John 3: 1-
¹ Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. ² Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. ³ And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. ⁴ Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. ⁵ And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. ⁶ Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
⁷ Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. ⁸ He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. ⁹ Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (whoever

1John 3:22-24

²² And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. ²³ And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.²⁴ Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. ( how is it that we know? you might as well read 10-21)

Titus 1:16
¹⁶ They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work


I just do not understand why "Churches" teach otherwise. (All this talk and we are still at the beginning.) You guys have said -~They think we're nuts.
Is that because we do not simply do what we claim to believe, by chance?

Have you ever seen a crazy person on the street talking to him/herself; having a conversation even? Try this then tomorrow, say aloud every thought that comes into your mind. mmhmmm; we are insane my friends every one us believers and non-.

Originally Posted by Desdinova

Sorry friend, but blaming the devil for the evils of man is a church cop-out.


When someone here lists a razor on eBay wanting a minimum price, is it the fault of the devil that they are being greedy?

When we speak of smelling great and having BBS and talk of nice clothes, is it the fault of the devil that we are vain?


These choices we make. Not the devil. This is the free will we were given. To blamer our choices on someone else is a slap in the face to Him.

Well, Where do you see i said the blame was on the devil, I said we are influenced, Just as man's original sin Eve was only influnced by the devil and Adam was only influenced by Eve, both had free will and chose.
Again this is off topic so let'sallow the post to stay on track. Pm if you wish.