Thread: Bow Ties

Originally Posted by Bruno

I meant fallacy in the way that a tie is only a sign of respect because other people you respect wear a tie. So you wear a tie because they do. Just like people in ancient china blackened their teeth. And I did say that I thought wearing one was good for your career or in dealing with people who wear ties.
All cultures in all times have such things.

The fact that I personally don't like wearing ties does not invalidate the observation that ties fullfill the same role as gang colors, uniform badges or other things in which people express themselves.

A glass of wine with you, sir.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I meant fallacy in the way that a tie is only a sign of respect because other people you respect wear a tie. So you wear a tie because they do. Just like people in ancient china blackened their teeth. And I did say that I thought wearing one was good for your career or in dealing with people who wear ties.

All cultures in all times have such things. It's a fallacy to think the the tie itself has an inherent 'respect' property. The tie denotes respect because the majority of the people in our culture have decided that the tie denotes respect. If tomorrow we all decided that respect is shown by other means, then those other means will take the place of the tie.

The fact that I personally don't like wearing ties does not invalidate the observation that ties fullfill the same role as gang colors, uniform badges or other things in which people express themselves.
.

I did a bunch of snipping but I agree. The tie itself doesn't show respect. But someone who has take the time and cares to pick out clothing (that society deems) appropriate or slightly nicer than appropriate shows respect in their dress, as a whole.

And the last bit I left in I really like because, for me, a tie (or bow tie, or my earrings, watch, etc) are just a way to express myself.

A search on bow tie and Playboy yields the best instructional video, although it's a little provocative.

Originally Posted by Bruno

To be fair, any type of tie is silly.
It is a non-functional garment that is supposed to indicate that the wearer is somehow 'better' than others who are not wearing it. It's used to mark the difference between 'classes'.

It's not on youtube so I cannot link the video directly, but in the link below you'll find footage of the Dutch Prince consort calling his tie a ridiculous snake around his neck, after which he pulls it off and throws it on the ground. After that example, many high profile dignitaries started going without their ties.
NOS Nieuws - Prins Claus wars van protocol (2002)

Mind you, I am not against ties. I just dislike that a non functional garment is used to force visual distinction between classes which supposedly should not exist.

EXACTLY! They're stupid! The most filthy thing in a doctor's surgery, you know!
Dangling all over that genitalia and this foot and that mucous membrane! Disgusting, vile things! The material, though, is nice, maybe for a throwrug? A bathrobe? A nice frilly French 16c shirt would be MUCH better to break up the monotony of the buttons; the shirt white, with pistols, a coach and gun dogs, several mistresses, acres, a north south and east wing on the House, an orchard, lake, rowing boat, at night, silent oars, a bottle of wine, a pipe, Shelly by lantern, full moon, dark shapes of islands on the lake in the misty gloom....but I am carried away....

SWMBO rolled eyes, looked skywards and called me a derogatory word describing a male who 'lays' (or is it 'lies') with his own gender (not that there's anything wrong with that) when I said "On straightrazorplacedotcomforum they reckon bow ties are cool".
So I doubt I'll ever actually wear one except for a jolly jokey thing at the Christmas party. Now there's an idea...

I do like cufflinks though. They hardly EVER dangle on genitalia and, being metal, can, at least, be sterilised...

for information only...

Originally Posted by Bruno

In origin it might have had a function.
These days, the tie is used solely to denote difference between people.

Did you know that the emperor of China once had incredibly rotten teeth? They were black. As a result, nobility started dying their teeth black because they did want to make it obvious that their teeth were good and the emperor's weren't. Noone wants to tell the emperor he had no clothes. After a while, black teeth was to them what he tie is to you. The tie itself is NOTHING. It's the meanings that people attach to it that are the crux. And in this case, what people attach to the tie is the feeling of 'being one of them'.

The idea that you wear a tie out of respect is a fallacy imo. The tie is a piece of cloth. It does not show anything except that a group of important people wear ties, and you wear a tie because they do. In the Netherlands, a different evolution was started by the prince consort, as a result of which many dignitaries started leaving theirs.

Wearing the tie is following a particular herd, like wearing blue for crips and red for bloods (or whatever their colors were). I am not saying that it is bad or unwise to wear a tie. It's probably good for your creer. But wearing a tie is an attempt at belonging, no different from wearing gang colors.

I really, really like this comment. Exactly. But I respect the thoughts of those who feel a tie is required for some events. I remember feeling extremely embarrassed at an event held at Government House in Darwin where the physical invitation stipulating a tie was not passed on, and having to rush back to my hotel room to get a tie (yes, I had packed one). But I felt like trash, and felt entirely self conscious all evening thinking everyone was focusing on my visible (including hands) tattoos. The tats weren't relevant, but being caught 'off side' put me 'on guard'.

I agree about 'badges'; we all have them. Mobile phones, ties, shoes. Clothes? Shall we go naked? Shall we not cut the hair of our heads? The nails of our fingers; toes? Shall we discard our body-shells and be only we; our souls, our I?

Sorry, got carried away again.....

On the OTHER hand, a genuine desire to love the art of a tie, the fabric, the handiwork or body adornment done without direction, without requirement, without judgement of worth may not be worthless thing.

Excellent conversation, LOVE it!!!

It has never occurred to me that someone would wear a tie when they didn't have to. To stay in the direction this thread is moving, I only began to wear bow ties after wearing a traditional tie for 8 straight years. Even at a wedding I might chose to skip it entirely. But when forced the bow tie makes for a fun alternative, unless your the type that takes yourself too seriously.

I have a shirt and tie hanging in my office, for the off chance that I get called into an audit with the FDA.
I understand all about needing to fit in, or at least looking like you belong. And I would feel naked without a tie in front of an FDA auditor.

The thing with tribal identification like this, is that it also generates behavioral expectations. If you wear the identification, you are supposed to know the unwritten rules and obey them.

Once, when I was still a consultant, I worked for a French space company, building a system for another division of said French space company. I was the lead software engineer. The project was rife with political influence and power play between the divisions. Initially I was doing what I always did: wear a shirt and try to follow the hierarchy. Only in this case it was getting me nowhere because the French customer division was expecting me to fit in their hierarchy. Due to all the powerplays, I was hamstrung.

So after a couple of weeks, I made a concious decision to play a role I really did not enjoy: the know-it-all prima donna.
That monday, I showed up in Jeans, an over size heavy metal t-shirt, combat boots, and with a large collection of metal on my laptop which was playing constantly on speaker.

I broke the mold and from then on noone tried to fit me into their hierarchy any more and I was either left alone or approached carefully.
Admittedly, I knew I was going out on a limb there. They couldn't throw me out because I was not theirs to do so, and the people I worked for wouldn't, because I had already proven to them before that I could put my money where my mouth was. But if I had screwed up the project, I knew I was going to be thrown under the bus, since I elected not to be part of the herd protection offered by fitting in.

I bet that was fun too! I think there are different expectations with the bow tie than with a traditional tie, although Im not sure what they are yet. I think perhaps you are expected to be a little more timid and more intelligent.

I did a quick look through this thread and at some of the links.

What are some things to consider when choosing a bow tie? How do the materials affect tying it? What are some things to avoid? Does it require a certain kind of shirt to pull off the look?

I tend to be fairly conservative, but I imagine a bow tie needs a little more flair than a neck tie. What are some dos and don'ts about matching it to the suit and shirt? How contrasting should it be?

I tend to think of a bow tie as being MORE conservative than a neck tie. I don't think that there are any "rules" concerning the level of panache needed to "pull off" the right "look".

Material definitely does have an effect on how the finished bow looks. Thinner materials tend to crease and "flop" easily, and stiffer materials tend to be the easiest to get a uniform, symmetric shape. That being said, more people ask me if it is a real, hand-tied bow tie vs. a clip-on when it's a stiffer fabric. I presume this is because it looks almost TOO perfect, lol. A former co-worker, and fellow bow tie wearer friend of mine always told me that I worked too hard on making my bow ties look too perfect and "stiff" looking. He felt that being a little careless in the tie created a little more je ne sais quoi, and to this day when I tie my bow ties I intentionally refrain from trying to achieve perfection and smile thinking of his comments.

Creating that "right" level of imperfection is certainly easier with a loose, floppy fabric.

My over-all advice....don't over-analyze it...just tie one on and go with it