Thread: lilberal v. conservative

I'd like to say up front that I already hate myself for diving into this thread.

There are two philosophical concepts that concern me the most - and they can be embraced by conservatives and liberals alike.

They are the concepts of social justice and social engineering. In my opinion they are the cornerstones of what has always been bad in human nature.

Social justice requires that one group of people be made to pay for the sins committed by another group of people against yet another group of people. The people that must pay may or may not even be related to the group that committed the sin - but pay they will -either financially or with freedoms and liberties. This is one area that both groups derive much of their power. The offended groups can easily be swayed to give anyone power who will offer to be the broker between the people who pay and the people who receive.

Social engineering allows a group to take it's ideology and force conformity to it. Again, both conservatives and liberals do this - although one group does it more radically and with little regard to personal liberty. So there is a struggle at the ideology level to determine how a society will function and behave, and often with unintended consequences. Again - much power is on the table for anyone that can convince a group that they will benefit more by relinquishing freedom for security and to trust them to benevolently broker it.

In social engineering, there is also danger in the societal sub-division. Witness the last election. Liberals and conservatives had to be very concerned to be able to get the "x" vote. X being, black, Hispanic, white women, Muslim, white Christian male, far left, far right etc., etc.. Each group wants something different socially. They have subdivided ideologically and yet they want to vote for only one group or another that will drive their specific ideology and make everyone else conform. This is why Governments have no business socially engineering it's peoples to a specific ideology. What they do need to do is make sure that it's peoples are free to live their own ideology with the understanding that it will not interfere with another's ability to do the same.

Ok that's it - bring it on

Originally Posted by Alembic

Social justice requires that one group of people be made to pay for the sins committed by another group of people against yet another group of people. The people that must pay may or may not even be related to the group that committed the sin - but pay they will -either financially or with freedoms and liberties. This is one area that both groups derive much of their power. The offended groups can easily be swayed to give anyone power who will offer to be the broker between the people who pay and the people who receive.

I would really like you to give an example of this. When I think social justice, I think equality. I think of the biggest tax breaks going to the poor and middle class, the idea of upward class movement (which is at an all-time low right now), etc...

And I don't think those are negatives, I think that's what seperates us from 1400's Europe.

Originally Posted by Alembic

Social engineering allows a group to take it's ideology and force conformity to it. Again, both conservatives and liberals do this - although one group does it more radically and with little regard to personal liberty. So there is a struggle at the ideology level to determine how a society will function and behave, and often with unintended consequences. Again - much power is on the table for anyone that can convince a group that they will benefit more by relinquishing freedom for security and to trust them to benevolently broker it.

It seems clear to me that you watch too much Beck. Social engineering? You mean like church? Absolutely everyone tries to force it's ideology on everyone else, even if that ideology is pure freedom. Pure freedom is probably the worst idea ever, because it would result in anarchy, which would then result in warlords. Right now, we're allowing the financial markets to fall into anarchy, to "Preserve the Free Market", and the problem is we're creating financial warlords who control the market. The richest 1% control 34% of the wealth, and that percentage is only increasing. Call me a Secret-Lefty-Socialist-Nazi-Communist-Kenyan, but I think that's wrong.

Originally Posted by goaT

It seems clear to me that you watch too much Beck.

And this is why I hate myself for posting here. You are not capable of just presenting your perspective - you must first label and insult the other person, which is why liberals and conservatives will never be able to dialog in a meaningful fashion. And so a discussion is over before it can even get started.

IMO there is the totalitarian left that wants to make everyone over in their image. At the other extreme there is the extreme right that wants a Darwinian , survival of the fittest, society. Left or right, extreme or moderate, these people are at opposite poles and sincerely believe in their convictions.

I remember seeing Charlie Rose, a card carrying liberal AFAIC, interviewing arch conservative icon, William F. Buckley. Rose asked Buckley, "You believe in social security, don't you ?" WFB's expression became sad, he responded shaking his head,"No I do not." Rose looked on with his expression changing to one of incredulity.

It is not so simple, should there be a 'nanny state' telling individuals what they can and cannot do, using the taxes of the workers to support the less fortunate ? Are the less fortunate lazy, shiftless slugs who avoid work to stay on the dole ? IME that is the way many conservatives see it.

Many liberals see it as a moral responsibility to take care of the poor, the infirm and the elderly. Some conservatives may agree but I think the general consensus among them is you make your bed and then you lie in it.

Does a women have the right to make decisions that effect her body, impacting her life dramatically ? Or is abortion a selfish choice completely ignoring the possibility of the life that would have been ? Is there a more divisive issue between the parties ? I don't think so.

I can sympathize with both points of view. Both sides seem to speak in absolutes in black or white with no shades of gray. Extremists on both ends of the spectrum can be ruthless and will resort to cheating and lying to further their causes. The end justifying the means.

Now add to that the corruption that the love of money brings to the system. That may affect an individual be they far left, far right or anywhere in between. Seems to me it is the human condition and the pendulum swings one way, than the other. It sometimes ends in the middle and that leaves both sides dissatisfied. Sixty two years of life have given me to understand what my grandfather meant fifty years ago when he told me to believe half of what you see and nothing that you read.

It's very simple really. One side is pure good and the other pure evil. it's up to you to decide which is which.

I really dislike how we are forced to decide if we are liberal or conservative. Like others, I have some principles that are considered liberal, and others that are conservative. Why can't there be a politician that simply runs on their stance on all the issues instead of shoehorning themselves into liberal or conservative?

I also really dislike how politicians and pundits for the two sides so often don't practice what they preach.

What I really hate is how religion is brought into politics. In a land of religious freedom with supposed separation of church and state, unless you wear jesus on your shoulder you can never get elected to a higher office.

America, the country was founded by great men who had ideas and espoused a specific philosophy of individual freedom, achievement and greatness. They were not politicians, they were thinkers with innovative ideas and their like will probably never be seen again.

Conservative? Liberal? Our government and it's people have drifted so far from the original PHILOSOPHY of the founders that it is not even worth discussing. They are actually one in the same. There are no true men of ideas leading us anymore.

Issue based politics is conservatism and liberalism. It's just many different tribes trying to garner the most power through politics.

I agree with much of what has been said already. I just want to suggest that the problem lies in career politicians. Sadly most who can and do get elected into most offices carry this title. Stricter term limits and regulations on offices would force people to serve their term for the good of the people and then go back home to their actual career and life. When they don't need to convince everyone on one side of the fence to keep voting for them in order to keep their job, they will easily compromise and work together to form worthwhile solutions. Good luck convincing any man or woman currently in a political position though.

I would take it a step further.

Career politicians and their buddies on 24/7 news and talk radio that help to get their bases fired up and develop a "them vs us" mentality.

Then when it is time for election they say, "Ooooh. Do not worry about what I will do to fix the problem. Look at what this guy is not doing!!!!"

Originally Posted by Philadelph

I agree with much of what has been said already. I just want to suggest that the problem lies in career politicians. Sadly most who can and do get elected into most offices carry this title. Stricter term limits and regulations on offices would force people to serve their term for the good of the people and then go back home to their actual career and life. When they don't need to convince everyone on one side of the fence to keep voting for them in order to keep their job, they will easily compromise and work together to form worthwhile solutions. Good luck convincing any man or woman currently in a political position though.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Maybe i am more liberal but if it is about the politics then i do not want to hang myself into single one ideology but rather use my own brains instead. Both ideologies have some good, some bad and lot of crap.
Besides here in Europe our political field is not divided into conservatories/liberals but there are more than 10 parties with their own ideologies. They all have to get along and co-operate with each other.
Also terms 'liberal' and 'conservative' have bit different meaning here in Europe than in USA.

This is an interesting thread that can go all sorts of different directions...

In my own mind in the US I see both republican and democratic parties as being too liberal... but of course I think the term liberal is highly misused.

Liberal seems to be a word that would be related to liberty, yet it seems to be the "liberals" that always want to generate new laws and restrictions such as:

1) higher taxes
2) restrictsions on gun ownership/posession
3) restrictions on vehicle ownership (legislated through cafe etc)

One of my friends, in fact, states that he is a conservative, because conservatives resist change, and since the government has never offered a change for the better, the best we can hope for is that things stay the way they are now.