Thread: Etucaton

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

But one thing I do think is that a high school education in the 1930s, my mom and dad's time, gave the student a more advanced education than a college degree fifty years later. That is my impression whether it be right or wrong. What is the USA's ranking in the world in math and science now ...... 34th in the world or something like that ?

i could not agree with anything more than i do with this, there has been a general dumbing down of the (public) school system in the last few decades and i think one of the main caused of this is the no child left behind rule, which talking to many teachers is the dumbest things ever to hit public schools

-dan-

I agree , being a blue collar worker you really see that effect in a lot of the younger guys. Even a little in my son but that has faded a little now that he's older. There also seems to be a huge lack of common sense. Just my 2 cents

There has been a general decrease in quality in education probably since the 1920s in this country it's only in the last 30 years or so that it's has really accelerated.

I lay the blame on society, on parents and kids themselves.

I remember my dad who went to schools in NYC in the 1920s telling stories of kids in class who had immigrant parents who didn't apply themselves in school and the parents were called up to school and right in front of the class after the teacher slapped his or her face the parent would basically beat the hell out of the kid right there and then. These folks sacrificed all to come here and expected their kids to be educated and improve their station in life as well as the parent's in old age. They knew the value of education.

That has been lost on too many in our society these days.

Bigspendur-You make an interesting point. As a veteran teacher of 14 years myself, I can tell you that, though we don't slap or "beat the hell out of" students anymore, my best students are mostly 1st or 2nd-generation immigrants. My big suburban southeastern high school is probably one of the better ones in a struggling state (South Carolina).

I teach English IV (seniors) mostly, and many of my better readers and writers are, interestingly, the ones who speak and write in broken English in the idioms of their native languages (the dropped articles with the Russian and Ukranian kids, the adjective after the noun with the hispanic kids, that sort of thing). We have an exploding population of Hispanic, Asian, and Russian students who are almost all a joy to teach and have in class. In contrast to many spoiled American kids who truly think the world revolves around them, the immigrant children really seem to appreciate our efforts and genuinely want to please, which makes all the difference. A teacher can do ANYTHING with a student with a good attitude who wants to learn, regardless of any other limitations.

Having said that, one of my pet peeves is that nearly every yahoo who hasn't stepped into a school or classroom in twenty years has a pet theory
about a magic bullet that will "fix" education (present company excepted, of course), usually based on some simple-minded ideological twaddle.

The reality is that the problems that plague education are far too complicated for any quick-fix solutions, and are the result of the accumulated social ills that society has largely dumped at the schoolhouse door...

And , though most educators I know are at least good, and some are outstanding (though there are a few in any school who ought to be tossed out the door), they are ill-equipped to handle the bewildering variety of problems presented to them by classes that often top 30 students, and that leave them often doing little more than managing behavior (sometimes with lousy administrative or parent support). And yet we soldier on because, for most of us in the teacher game, it is a calling; I have often considered it my mission in life without any pretense. I give it everything I have, and it takes it all right back out of me; that is just part of it.

Ultimately, our best students, and it stands to reason the most successful in life, are the ones who come to us the most prepared and supported by parents and communities who expect their, and our best! Ask any teacher-the "parents" you most need to talk to can rarely be reached by phone, and never seem to show up at open houses or parent-teacher conferences, or else they always seem to have an excuse for little Johnny's behavior.

Parents who would have schools turn out good readers and thinkers should be the ones with wall-to-wall books at home that they read, share, and cultivate a love for with their kids; it really has to be a cultural thing. The same goes for math, science, or any other discipline. Given that, the school part will fall into place naturally.

I don't want this to turn into a rant, so I will climb down off my soapbox now.


Have a Happy New Year, gentlemen! Aaron

Scouthikerdad-of course you are 100% correct. Unfortunately politics is involved and when that happens things go to hell in a hand-basket.

My wife has been teaching all her life and most of her friends are teachers and where she teaches there are just too many unstable homes, absentee parents, jailbird parents and stupid administrators. When you go to school and hate it and drop out of H.S well, when you have kids that attitude just gets transferred to the kids.

It's nothing more than the deliberate dumbing down of America that has been going on for what seems like forever. People are no longer taught to think. They are taught to feel and be entertained. Critical thinking and analysis are long gone.

I don't think there is a solution to this problem since the critical mass (meaning a very large number) of stupid people who cannot think their way out of simple problem has already been reached. Add to this fact that there is no infrastructure in the school systems or our culture that addresses this issue.

This may sound overly pessimistic to some. To those whom it does, tell me how this problem can be solved but please don't say throwing more money at it or eliminating poverty is the answer.

I work with with k-12 schools across the US both private and public supporting their database systems that they use for attendance, grades, and reporting to State and Federal level. I have been in many trainings with administrators and teachers and I can tell you in some school systems the teachers have all but given up. There are sites that are very attentive and when you look at their state scores find they are one of the top schools. There is also a large amount of time spent by administrators reporting to their states ( I have one site that has 2 full time employees to manage their state reporting ) so they can make sure to get the funding to continue supporting their site as much as possible. I know in Michigan they stopped using property taxes to support the education funding and tied it to the lottery and since then the funding per child has decreased almost every year.

I also live in Kalamazoo which started a program called the Kalamazoo Promise which gives any student who graduates from the Kalamazoo Public School System a 4 year scholarship to any Michigan University/College as long as they keep their grades up there as well. From what I understand the program is great for increasing enrollment but have found that is about the only positive so far. The drop out / revoking the scholar ship after high school is about the national average for those students who take it.

My daughter is in 5th grade and she loves school and as her parents we make sure she does her homework as well as encourage her to read as much as possible. She does struggle in math which we are still trying to find a way for her to learn that better but I have found we are not the norm for parents in our area. Most families are dual income and see school as a baby sitter and those students are very distracting to those that do want to learn. There is also rampant fighting in the Middle school she is suppose to go to next year and the site is one that has tried to revamp multiple times over the last 6 years.

From a higher education college even at the Junior College/Community College level is getting extremely expensive. Not so much in tuition but in books. I have taken a college class almost every year in some area I find interesting and recently enrolled in a Microbiology class. When I went to look at the cost of the book it was almost twice the price of what I paid in tuition. If the public schools are being charged even 2/3 the price I am there is another issue is the cost of the basic materials such as educational books. I know some states charge a rental fee for books while others do not to help cover costs and keep their material updated but also creates another financial burden for families.

I will stop my meandering thoughts now.. sorry for rambling.

Frank's post echoes how I started this topic to begin with.

The completion of the dumbing down of the population is to ensure even "middle class" kids who might do well and get into college can't afford to go. This way only the wealthy can go to college and the decay of the middle class accelerates and difficulty to climb your way out of the lower classes becomes all but impossible.

That way you are born into the lower classes and stay there as do your children while the rich continue to advance as do their children to form the future ruling class.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Frank's post echoes how I started this topic to begin with.

The completion of the dumbing down of the population is to ensure even "middle class" kids who might do well and get into college can't afford to go. This way only the wealthy can go to college and the decay of the middle class accelerates and difficulty to climb your way out of the lower classes becomes all but impossible.

That way you are born into the lower classes and stay there as do your children while the rich continue to advance as do their children to form the future ruling class.

Agreed! And as I have already said, I know of nothing that will reverse this.

In the Netherlands one in six is functionally illiterate. I.e. they can read and write but only with great difficulty. Is this a fault of our education system? Possibly, OTOH it may be that some people simply lack the faculties to become fully literate.

Maybe the US army has a special appeal to the functionally illiterate.