Thread: Etucaton

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

This is the same for pretty much any aspect of our culture. The systems focus entirely on the process of _________ (education, health care, agriculture, energy, environment pick your favorite). It's about how things get done, meetings, hearings, surveys, goals, objectives, policies, politics, plans but never about getting things done. There is no attention, or resources or time, ever, given to the folks who are at the leading edge of contact between the providers and the product, until they need someone to blame for the problems caused by the system players who are never involved in the product. The systems are what waste the most amount of time resources and money, while the producers struggle to get anything done.

Since we're talking about teachers, why should there be a tax deduction for money the individual teacher spends on school supplies for their classes that their school doesn't give them? Outrageous. Rather than putting up the necessary money that the System requires to meet goals etc., the teacher has to kick their own money back into the system to meet those requirements. Rather than provide the money, the System influences the tax code change to formalize the kick back requirement.

The only animals on this planet that engage in futile cycles are destined for, or are already extinct.

If a tradesmen has to buy tools to do his job should he also have to buy tools for everyone else he works with at his expense? Should teachers have to pay to decorate a classroom or buy notebooks for students or art supplies or anything else. The deduction isn't for personal items but for things teachers have to buy that years ago school systems provided but don't anymore.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Talk to active teachers and they will tell you they spend too much time fighting with parents who don't give a damn and kids who have no desire to learn and spend way too much time doing reams of paperwork and meting out discipline in the class and dealing with kids personal problems. There's no time to teach.

I'm sure this varies depending on where you are, but it is not the case with the teachers I know. Yes, there are some unmotivated kids who just like to cause problems, but for the most part, kids are just kids, and deep down they are good. If they are causing problems, there is usually something else going on. If that can be addressed, the rest falls into line.

Yes, I have run into some parents who say "I don't know how to handle my kid, and I expect you in the school to do it," but for the most part, parents are great allies.

Other issues are much larger factors.

I'll just say one thing. Homeschool.

I may be off the the mark here, but could it be that the lack of education of potential military recruits, be associated with the places that most potential military recruits come from, the lower socio-economic parts of the country?! (Based solely on what I've heard, not experience, of the US methods) Also, from what I hear, the areas most targeted by military recruiters.
Having once been a soldier myself, please take no offence, but isn't it easier to take some dumb b@stard and break him down before giving him an education in how to kill people.
I admit this isn't the Australian military method of recruitment, as the opposite reasoning applies. The Australian military wants people who can think outside the square, people who are ready to question orders if they seem to be made with mis-judgement of the situation at hand, or re-interpret those orders to suit a given situation to minimise loss of their own soldiers. If someone orders you to march from point A to B and the minefield is in the middle, you don't march through it if you can navigate around it.
Perhaps the education system is fine and it is just the people commonly targeted for recruitment that are the issue.

Mick

MickR,
I don't think that only the military is having this problem. I was reading somewhere about how much money companies spend to reeducated people they hire. Wish I could remember where. They were saying that some companies are looking into hiring young people before they go to college and just educate them theirselves. It would save them money in the long run. Train them to do the job right in the first time. More of an apprenticeship, and this was referring to management level jobs.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I saw an article that said a very large percentage of people taking the written test for the military can't pass it with the most minimal of score.

That got me to thinking with all the attention being thrown to testing and standards in schools what's going on?

You see the school system is the most important place to begin the reshaping of society. Yea they always talk (the politicians) about improving things but thats just window dressing. Those rich folks who control everything have it in their best interests to have a stupid and ignorant population. One that can be manipulated so that instead of focusing on the true enemy of the people and making informed decisions about elections and general affairs they will believe what they are told without question by shills of the rich. The population will accept the fact the enemy is amongst themselves thereby ignoring the true fight. So the state of affairs with education is the way it is because that is what they really want.

That's the way I see it.

You know, I've wondered if this is true. No child left behind was so inept and damaging to the school system that it almost seemed purposeful. My mom is a retired school teacher. The stories she tells about the current education system are really astonishing--she subs sometimes, so is up on current events. For instance, teachers are being held accountable for students grades, and get in trouble if they fail. So you can guess what happens, everybody passes. They don't even have to do any work....

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I'm sure this varies depending on where you are, but it is not the case with the teachers I know. Yes, there are some unmotivated kids who just like to cause problems, but for the most part, kids are just kids, and deep down they are good. If they are causing problems, there is usually something else going on. If that can be addressed, the rest falls into line.

Yes, I have run into some parents who say "I don't know how to handle my kid, and I expect you in the school to do it," but for the most part, parents are great allies.

Other issues are much larger factors.

You went to good schools in good areas. Go into not so good areas and things change very quickly. Just look at the HS drop out rate in this country.

Another thing is the issue with "bad teachers". I agree if a teacher is incompetent they need to be removed but honestly now did any of you have bad teachers? I know I did and because one was bad didn't mean I didn't learn. I was motivated to learn so good or bad I learned. Many kids aren't motivated and don't care and they expect a teacher to do a circus act to entice kids into learning. What's that saying about you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Think in China kids come to school to learn or to have a good time with their friends?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You went to good schools in good areas. Go into not so good areas and things change very quickly. Just look at the HS drop out rate in this country.

I sure did, but I student taught in Rochester, NY. I know teachers in the city and in every suburb, and that is what I'm talking about here. Some of the best parents-as-allies are in the city, but of course, some are bad. The same is true in the burbs.

To tell you the truth, parents in the city tend to be MUCH easier to deal with and better allies than in the suburbs. For the most part, the parents in the cities have much more respect for teachers and are much more likely to side with the teachers than their children in the silly day to day disputes. In the suburbs, the parents tend blame the teachers when their kids don't get A's.

Again, I'm sure this all varies depending on the culture of the area you are in, but this is my direct experience and what I hear about from the teachers in and around Rochester.

Originally Posted by sgthuskey

MickR,
I don't think that only the military is having this problem. I was reading somewhere about how much money companies spend to reeducated people they hire. Wish I could remember where. They were saying that some companies are looking into hiring young people before they go to college and just educate them theirselves. It would save them money in the long run. Train them to do the job right in the first time. More of an apprenticeship, and this was referring to management level jobs.

No problems. Like I alluded to, I really don't know the situation or the systems in place in the U.S.


Mick

As far as teachers go how much value "we" place on them may be gaged by how much we pay them. They'll never get rich.

As for the military, since there is no longer a draft they have had to lower the standards for educational level based on pre and post enlistment testing as well as allowing some criminal offenders in for the first time in history. If there had been a draft we probably would have never went to Iraq and we certainly wouldn't have been there as long as we have. That is another story though.