Thread: Learning a second language

Being bilingual is a more unusual condition than most people think. It means speaking both very naturally and capably, and I wouldn't call myself bilingual in anything. My German wife is, after fourteen years in the UK, as she speaks English not quite without unnatural structures or pronunciation once in a while, but completely naturally, and faster than most of us.

There was a peculiar phenomenon in the days of British India, when British children were cared for by native servants, and often learned the native languages simultaneously with English. A small child's language learning ability goes far beyond an adult's, and is quite different in its nature. They grew up truly bilingual, as children of mixed marriages often do, without even an awareness that they are speaking different languages with different parents. Then they were sent away to school in the UK, and came back assuming they could speak the language. But at least for a while, they found it had gone entirely. It was also something of a joke among Indian soldiers, that young British officers often addressed them in the female forms, which they had picked up in the course of their domestic arrangements.

Language learning doesn't necessarily stave off dementia. A point to remember is that most languages, other than the simplest, are more inflected than English. The verb forms are different for different people, the adjectives are masculine or female when the object isn't, the adjectives have to agree with gender or number, etc. etc. Some use a form of the noun to perform the functions we would do with prepositions, like "with", "by", "of" etc. Some of the European ones have a plural and a singular "you", and use the plural one when they want to be formal or polite, even if there is only one of you.

The result is that they are far more difficult to begin than English, which any market trader overseas can learn to jabber a little. But when you've got those things you've got them, and they mostly obey the rules. English starts easy, but you never get to the end of its complications.

I agree that it is difficult to learn a language well without human teachers, or at least the supplementing of self-teaching materials with human interaction. I teach college students in Saudi Arabia, and I tell them you can't build muscles by lifting featherweight plastic weights. Strain strengthens the mind, too. Still, there is no substitute for reading things you want to read. There is a sort of takeoff point in learning a language, where it sticks in the mind. I recently opened some of my old French university textbooks, and found that I had no trouble with some passages I distinctly remembered finding heavy going in my second year at university, which was 1969-70. But at that time I spoke much more fluently in Spanish, which I learned on a more conversational type of course. When I spent some time in Spain a few years back, though, I found far more of it had gone. The difference is that I had still been reading, not regularly but from time to time, in French.

That was really well written. Interesting poi on the Brit Soldiers. One i have found to be true from Amerrican Soldiers also...When they speak a different language it is usually in the feminine because they learn the language from females. Except of course Russian...Which is easier if you just take all the tenses out...makes me wish Esporanto vwould have taken off....Easy to use but without the nationality hang ups.

The key to learning a new language is using the new language - and living with the new language. It's one thing to learn it through Rosetta Stone or in the classroom, but until you immerse yourself with a new language, you'll only pick up bits and pieces and soon forget. I grew up around Mexicans and spoke Spanish, but I forgot a lot when I moved from Arizona. I learned French in college and spoke it...for awhile and then forgot it. I lived in Italy for awhile and learned Italian (knowing Spanish and French really helped), but after I moved away, I forgot it. If I don't think about it and somebody catches me off-guard, I can converse with them for awhile and then it fades away. I think it's because we are accustomed to doing the xxx-to-English and English-to-xxx translations in our head, when we should just communicate in one language.

I know my next language is Russian - I married a Russian, so I have to learn it eventually. She came to this country about 10 years ago and learned English (took her about two years). Now she speaks both languages fluently. Her parents don't speak English, but I manage to hold a conversation with them. I find it's more than just words, it's also body language, emphasis, and the context of the conversation. I know one thing that I won't understand as an American is how Russians speak with passion, there are loud and forceful one minute and then quiet the next. Americans don't speak with a passion.

Originally Posted by Caledonian

Being bilingual is a more unusual condition than most people think. It means speaking both very naturally and capably, and I wouldn't call myself bilingual in anything. My German wife is, after fourteen years in the UK, as she speaks English not quite without unnatural structures or pronunciation once in a while, but completely naturally, and faster than most of us.

I can honestly say that I am bilingual in Dutch and English. And with bilingual I mean to the level of a native speaker.
Several English and Irish people I've worked with told me my language skill is better than theirs.
I have to admit that what helped me a lot was working with English colleagues for a couple of years. My reading and writing skills did not need improving at that point, but speaking naturally is something you can only learn by talking with native speakers.

My French and German are good enough to get by, but not good enough to have an easy flowing conversation.

Once my Japanese gets a bit better I'll have to find some Japanese people to hang out with
I have a bunch of Japanese samurai movies, but the problem with those is that trying to understand that is like being a novice student of the English language and trying to understand Texan or Scottish dialect

Originally Posted by Wintchase

That was really well written. Interesting poi on the Brit Soldiers. One i have found to be true from Amerrican Soldiers also...When they speak a different language it is usually in the feminine because they learn the language from females. Except of course Russian...Which is easier if you just take all the tenses out...makes me wish Esporanto vwould have taken off....Easy to use but without the nationality hang ups.

The problem with Esperanto is precisely that it has nothing attached to it.

For example, suppose I got really interested in Japanese bladesmithing. If I learn Japanese I can immerse myself in everything that is written about that topic by the people who are experts. I can learn to understand the culture. I can talk with everyone who matters (at least if they will see me etc). And everything I can want to talk about has an extensive vocabulary and terminology.

If I were to learn esperanto, I could... pretty much only talk to other language-o-philes. It will be very hard to find one who is also an experienced Japanese blacksmith. I would say the chances are nil, even if esperanto had taken off. On top of that, there would be zero literature and historical information available to me because that would still be in Japanese. And even if I were to find a Japanese blacksmithing expert who would speak esperanto, or perhaps talked to one via an interpretor, esperanto simply does not have the topical vocabulary to talk about in-depth about traditional bladesmithing.

Esperanto is an interesting thing from a language point of view, and perhaps useful as a common language for getting by in a foreign country. Ordering food, asking directions, etc. Things that are applicable regardless of which country you are in. For real practical applications it was doomed from the start.

Mind you, 'just getting by and asking directions' is what most people would need when traveling. It would have been a major accomplishment had that happened. The reason it didn't happen imo is the issue I explained. People wanting to learn another language usually have a specific reason for doing so, and Esperanto would not help them with that.

As an american that has dabbled off and on learning Mandarin let me tell you, it is not easy. Tonal languages for a romantic speaker are hard t o grasp. My american ears have trouble with the tones.

I found Pimsleur to be better than Rosetta. It is basically audio tapes/cds. You should be able to get it at your library.

Originally Posted by ats200

Very insightful. The 'tongue twister' is pretty amusing. I do remember reading that it is a tonal language which makes me a bit nervous but hopefully everything turns out well. I do work with quite a few people who speak Mandarin are their primary language so hopefully I can practice a bit on my own time then hone my skills through practice dialogue with others. (strange to say hone here and not be referring to a smooth rock)

And I do agree with Jim, it should be required. I'm always so impressed during work that people from EVERY country speak English but I can't understand a word of most languages. (I've picked up a bit of Spanish and German... but only a few words related to travel and hospitality)

The tones aren't actually that bad, really, if you look at them in a more pragmatic way. Focus more on the sound of the word, not on consciously trying to create the tones. All languages are tonal to a certain degree, such as how, in English, we say HOSpital, not hosPITal, or hospitAL (like in Spanish). You just have to remember how the word sounds. You have to be a good mimic, like a parrot.

Chinese people also have regional accents, like anyone else, some being more easy to understand than others. Chinese learners learn a Beijing accent, although I lived in Henan province so I speak with a Henan accent. Most immigrants to the US are I think primarily from southern China, and their accents are a little difficult for me to understand. Not to mention that they randomly switch from Mandarin to whatever their local dialect is. Most Chinese are bilingual, peasants sometimes can't speak Mandarin.

Esperanto was a marvelous idea, and deserved to take off once the United Nations got under way, and yet it is practically dead nowadays. Maybe that is because nobody loves it as his own, and I'm sure few people, even among Esperanto speakers, ever got into the habit of thinking directly in it. Look at the way Shakespeare, the Bible, Churchill, Billy Connolly and a host of other sources creep into our daily words. I don't believe that would happen with Esperanto.

Idiomatic shades of meaning are usually specific to languages. "I'm sure" often means you aren't sure, and "no doubt" can mean there is no doubt, in England, but in Scotland means "I'm not at all sure of that." In Arabic "helas", literally "it is finished", can mean "All is complete", "Don't mention it", or "The situation has deteriorated beyond remedy". Probably that would came into Esperanto if a lot of people used it routinely for a few centuries, but we aren't going to.

I had a friend who worked in Hong Kong in the 1960s, when the level of refugees arriving from the mainland was high. He used to see Chinese taking out notebooks and discussing how to spell words, when they didn't understand each other, because the script spans a number of dialects. Similarity can even be seen in some of the Japanese traditional characters.

There is a marvelous story about Japanese script, because they realised that military signalling in morse was a non-starter with their traditional script. So they produced a new phonetic alphabet, with characters similar in number to our own. But in wartime it promoted laxity in ciphering, for they relied on the fact that a Japanese-speaking British, Inidian or American signaller was unlikely to be within range of their tactical communications. What they didn't realise, when they sent out encrypted groups of Japanese characters, is that with only two or three morse dots and dashes per letter, they were sending random groups of English letters without knowing it. Any signaller could take those down, and relay them to the specialist decryption unit in Ceylon.

My sensei told me that in Japanese as well as Chinese, people speaking different dialects (or unsure about pronunciation) would draw the kanji with their fingers. Pronunciation may differ, but the kanji are unambiguous.

i am fluent in spanish with english being my first language...


IF you are serious about trying to learn a language then you really should give a try to "michel thomas master languages"...

michel thomas has a incredible past if you read his wiki..... incredible man... he taught a group of school children to be conversant in french in 5 days....... 5 days.....

his teaching method is very different from pimmsleur and rosetta stone *(which sucks IMHO)... it is simple and effective....

give it a shot... you will not regret it...