Thread: The loss of basic skills in school

Originally Posted by pmburk

The young man had to write an "end of tour" essay and his supervisor brought to me to get my opinion on what the intern had written. After reading the essay, I told the supervisor that the writing level was well below what college junior should be capable of writing; to me, the essay was written more towards middle school to early high school level.

Sounds like he'll have to be disincentivized in some way to not continue such thing. Don't they have to write something when they apply, as well?

Originally Posted by pmburk

My position requires strong writing skills, but what if that intern finds himself in the same job after he graduates from college?

He shouldn't be able to get it based on inadequate qualifications, or if he does he shouldn't be able to keep it for too long. If that doesn't happen the problem is with the DoD not with him.

I think the fundamental skills people need to learn for our society are first critical reasoning, second ability to express themselves. One can of course get by without the second, but they'll be limited to positions where they don't have to interact with anybody else.

Originally Posted by gugi

Sounds like he'll have to be disincentivized in some way to not continue such thing. Don't they have to write something when they apply, as well?

Gugi, to answer your question: "Don't they have to write something when they apply, as well?", yes, to apply, a person must submit a resume'. I never saw the young man's resume', I am sure either he had help in writing it, or since he might may have not had an extensive work history it might have been a very short resume' and therefore, not too difficult to write.

He shouldn't be able to get it based on inadequate qualifications, or if he does he shouldn't be able to keep it for too long. If that doesn't happen the problem is with the DoD not with him.

I think the fundamental skills people need to learn for our society are first critical reasoning, second ability to express themselves. One can of course get by without the second, but they'll be limited to positions where they don't have to interact with anybody else.

I feel where DoD is "missing the mark" in hiring is that too much emphasis is placed on the technical skills and they ignore the fundamental skills. The DoD has hired a generation of "youngsters" that are well versed in their respective majors/fields, but not only lack the fundamental skills, but also have poor social and interpersonal skills. After talking to one of these "youngsters", I have often commented to my peers that I felt I was talking to a corpse.
Before I forget, I am 52 years old and I have been employed with the DoD for 27 years.

Don't you guys have some power to reject his report, or give him a lower grade based on it?
Apparently somebody else is making the hiring decisions at DoD and they should have some concept on what kind of workforce they're creating. One possibility is to hire people with very good technical skills and virtually non existing social/interpersonal skills and then have them being managed by people who can make it work. I personally don't think it's a particularly good model, but only putting it to practice can determine that.

I have some observations from the top tier academia and the emphasis there is on research since that brings in money. A good researcher most certainly has decent communication skills, as they have to convince others about their work, but they are more often than not not the best teachers out there. It works well though, because almost everybody can teach the basics adequately, and then when it comes to the state of the art stuff, it's more of a training by example and by definition they're the best at it.

Originally Posted by gugi

Don't you guys have some power to reject his report, or give him a lower grade based on it?
Apparently somebody else is making the hiring decisions at DoD and they should have some concept on what kind of workforce they're creating. One possibility is to hire people with very good technical skills and virtually non existing social/interpersonal skills and then have them being managed by people who can make it work. I personally don't think it's a particularly good model, but only putting it in practice can determine that.

I have some observations from the top tier academia and the emphasis there is on research since that brings in money. A good researcher most certainly has decent communication skills, as they have to convince others about their work, but they are more often than not not the best teachers out there. It works well though, because almost everybody can teach the basics adequately, and then when it comes to the state of the art stuff, it's more of a training by example and by definition they're the best at it.

Not me, I was only consulted by his supervisor whom we have mutual respect for each other. Our departments collaborate with each other. I had nothing to do with the young man's hiring. I know my colleague had the young man rewrite that essay based on my comments and input. By the way, I have a notorious reputation for being a ruthless proof reader, just ask my son!! I told my colleague that if the young man comes back next summer to work with us, perhaps it would be a good exercise to task him to write weekly reports as a way to help the intern's writing skills. Good writing is not hard to do, the secret to good writing is simplicity. Do I make mistakes with my writing? Yes, I try very hard to catch them and some of them get by me. I just found some mistakes in my opening commentary. I do take the time to proof, but some mistakes still get by me.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. In US education there's a lot of freedom what kind of courses students take, so it's relatively easy for them to design a rather poor education for themselves. At the end of the day the market sorts it out most of the time

If you Americans are afraid that you may be being left behind by the super smart Asian kids, you have nothing to worry about. Here in Thailand we are working hard to make sure that no student graduates from high school with the ability to concentrate for more than five seconds. We have achieved this by putting an iPhone or Black Berry in the hand of each student. Many students have an iPhone in the left hand and a Black Berry in the right hand. The government also has plans to stop children learning by giving each student a tablet computer that can do nothing but play Angry Birds.

On top of that, just in case any student gets the idea in to his or her head to learn something, we have a no fail policy. Even the stupidest student with the mental incompetence to be considered mentally disabled gets a passing mark.

The testing however, is not standardized. I write my own tests based on what I have taught. The Thai teachers teach write their own tests, which are just copied from locally produced text books, mistakes and all.

As for the quality of the teachers, it is well known that it is almost impossible to be fired from a public school in Thailand. Physical beatings causing lasting harm are not enough to do it. Nor is it enough that the teacher in question wasn't actually qualified to be a teacher.

So don't worry, your nuff nuffs are still going to be smarter than our average students.

The only answer that I see is to let the technology take care of itself. If the American Educators are dead set going to use nothing but mind numbing devices' to educate our children then the only way to do the right thing is to make up the rest at HOME!
Thats right, teach them what's right and what's wrong, moraly and other wise.
Do the basics with your kids right from BL**dy jump street, Number, shapes, ARITHMATIC, colors and social studies world studies and why things like bullying and stealing and the rest are just PLain wrong!! They will teach what they will at school, the rest is up the the parent and guardians of our chilren and the futures.

Forgive my most pompast tirade, hit a sore point with me that's all.

From the desk of an irate citizen, tinkersd

Originally Posted by ndw76

If you Americans are afraid that you may be being left behind by the super smart Asian kids, you have nothing to worry about. Here in Thailand we are working hard to make sure that no student graduates from high school with the ability to concentrate for more than five seconds. We have achieved this by putting an iPhone or Black Berry in the hand of each student. Many students have an iPhone in the left hand and a Black Berry in the right hand. The government also has plans to stop children learning by giving each student a tablet computer that can do nothing but play Angry Birds.

On top of that, just in case any student gets the idea in to his or her head to learn something, we have a no fail policy. Even the stupidest student with the mental incompetence to be considered mentally disabled gets a passing mark.

The testing however, is not standardized. I write my own tests based on what I have taught. The Thai teachers teach write their own tests, which are just copied from locally produced text books, mistakes and all.

As for the quality of the teachers, it is well known that it is almost impossible to be fired from a public school in Thailand. Physical beatings causing lasting harm are not enough to do it. Nor is it enough that the teacher in question wasn't actually qualified to be a teacher.

So don't worry, your nuff nuffs are still going to be smarter than our average students.

I am quite surprise to have read your post because I always felt that Asian students had more self discipline and desire to learn. Are you speaking only about the students in Thailand or Asian students in general?

I am shocked that some young people can't tell time on an anolog clock. My 24 year old nephew can't read or write cursive and neither can most of his friends, unbelievable!