Thread: British Law?

Taking a shoplifting and making it a forcible felony sounds bad on the surface. Something deeper perhaps?

Usually the reason for charging a person with the most stringent crime is that most prosecutors know the cases will be plead out. If a person is charged with a misdemeanor, there is not much negotiating room and the chances (and costs) at trial are not enough to guarantee a conviction or maximum penalties. If they are charged with a felony, then a plea arrangement can be made for a lessor charge where the (alleged) criminal will get at least some form of punishment.

I am not able to carry my Swiss army knive to work, it maybe has a 2 inch blade as sharp as a dull spoon because my job considers it carrying a weapon to work

Most companies forbid the use of knives at work. As an HES rep and medic for the oil and gas industry, I can say that the reason for this mostly boils down to liability. For example, Chevron's knife policy states that personal pocket knives are not allowed to be used for work. It is interesting, though, that a knife may be used if it meets certain conditions:
1) It is the most appropriate tool for the job
2) It's use is covered in the JSA (Job Safety Analysis)
3) It is provided by and maintained by the contracting company.

In this case it's almost always easier to utilize the approved "alternative cutting device" provided by Chevron (a box cutter with a guarded blade that utilizes a trigger to operate the guard).

Another interesting side note is that it is not against company policy to possess or carry a pocket knife at work only to use it in the performance of the job.

[QUOTE=
The fact you can carry 2 1911's under your coat does not create a legitimate use for a switch blade. I never bumped into a carpenter,carpet installer, wall paper hanger....etc... that had a switch blade on their person. I will tell you that the carpet installers blades were so sharp I think you could shave with one.

One also has to think about the unlawful use laws. Anything can be turned into a weapon. We get back to the proper use.

****I have no intention of debating gun control laws, it was not the intention of my post.***** That is all!!


Enjoy the day!![/QUOTE]

Legitimate use has nothing to do whit it. Tobacco has no legitimate use. Alcohol has no legitimate use. To be frank when so many safety/cartridge razors are available SRs have no legitimate use now days (not in the sense we are talking about here). Yet all are things that we in this country take as a freedom to enjoy. Legislation garnered around the concept of legitimate use is a slippery slope to a nanny state that slides way beyond any powers given to gov by the constitution.

Yes, our system is supposed to protect our citizens from crime .... but not at the cost of restricting the freedoms of those citizens to enjoy their own particular pursuit of happiness.

Originally Posted by RayCover

Tobacco has no legitimate use. Alcohol has no legitimate use. Yes, our system is supposed to protect our citizens from crime .... but not at the cost of restricting the freedoms of those citizens to enjoy their own particular pursuit of happiness.

As far as I am aware it's still perfectly legal to smoke and drink in most countries, albeit with sensible restrictions to prevent misuse e.g. it's illegal to drive when drunk.
In terms of restricting citizens to pursue their goal of happiness, sometimes we have to give up a measure of personal freedom for the good of others. Some pursuits that make us happy may make other people very unhappy.
I've certainly noticed that some people are getting more selfish, ill-mannered and concerned only with their 'rights'.

See this is why I love Arizona. I can carry openly, or concealed with out any license. Heck I could walk around with an AR-15 if I wanted to. As long as I obey the law, there are no problems.

Originally Posted by welshwizard

As far as I am aware it's still perfectly legal to smoke and drink in most countries, albeit with sensible restrictions to prevent misuse e.g. it's illegal to drive when drunk.
In terms of restricting citizens to pursue their goal of happiness, sometimes we have to give up a measure of personal freedom for the good of others. Some pursuits that make us happy may make other people very unhappy.
I've certainly noticed that some people are getting more selfish, ill-mannered and concerned only with their 'rights'.

My point was only to say that "Legitimate use" should not be used as a legal argument for the banning of something some find objectionable. Yes it is still legal in most places to use tobacco, alcohol and straight razors. However, if "legitimate use" is the ruler we are measuring things by they could all be deemed illegal tomorrow.

I personally know 4 people who have been shot one of which did die. I don't a single person who has been intentionally stabbed by any kind of knife. Yet I can legally carry a gun for self defense but cannot carry a switchblade. There is a logical disconnect there. A knife is just as viable a weapon for self defense as a gun is, especially within the 21' range.

The number of people I know personally who have been killed or seriously injured due to alcohol or tobacco use numbers in the dozens. Straight razors can easily be labeled a weapon and historically have been used as such. IF the standard by which our gov attempts ban things is based on their "legitimate use" vs the harm they have the potential to do many of our hobbies and pleasurable activities can easily be banned.

As far as the concept that people must give up personal freedoms for the good of the whole because it makes some people uncomfortable or unhappy, I say bulls--t.

Yes we need to be careful not abuse our freedoms and rights. We need to be respectful of others and give them leeway in their freedoms that may make us a bit uneasy. Courtesy and comfort cannot be legislated into a society. The answer is not to constantly take freedoms away from the people. That will cause revolt eventually.

Ray

Originally Posted by RayCover

Yes we need to be careful not abuse our freedoms and rights. We need to be respectful of others and give them leeway in their freedoms that may make us a bit uneasy. Courtesy and comfort cannot be legislated into a society. The answer is not to constantly take freedoms away from the people. That will cause revolt eventually.

Ray

The problem is that the nature of society has changed dramatically, large numbers of people now constantly abuse their freedoms and rights. They're too dumb to see that when you abuse privilege consistently, you may well lose it. There will only be revolt if the rights lost are those cherished by the majority of the people.
Two weeks ago my daughter's partner reminded someone at the railway station, very politely, that he was smoking in non-smoking area. The guy obviously decided that his right to smoke anytime, anyplace, anywhere was being questioned and launched a physical attack. Fortunately it ended OK and the smoking pugilist has a court appearance on Jan 6th.

Do you enjoy posting threads that enable you to get up on your high horse and look down at others?
Do you realize that there are plenty of topics where we could point at you and make fun of how backwards things are in your country?

Matthew 7:3

As far as I understand it in the UK you can carry an edc(every day carry) non locking folding knife with a cutting edge of 3" or less if you have reason to carry it. You can carry a fixed blade of larger sizes if you have reason to carry it. The tricky part is proving reason to carry it of course. Today I went on a hike through the countryside and into the woods with a 4" fixed blade in the pocket of my bergan. If I was pulled up I was going to the woods where I work and use the knife for various outdoors tasks. By rights I should be fine with that.

Common sense is needed as I wouldn't dream of taking the 4" fixed blade to town shopping before going to the woods, that's asking for trouble here. Somebody selling straight razors at a car boot sale or flea market is transporting a non locking razor with the intention to sell and should fall clear of the law.

There are that many laws and a stigma attached to knives that some police officers are uncertain and panic at the thought of anyone carrying any knife for any reason regardless of how small it is. If it came down to it you would have to prove you had reason to carry even the sub 3" knife but I like to think common sense would prevail in a court of law if I was found in posession of my little folder I use for various tasks throughout the day. None of these tasks involve menacing the public or liberating cash from tills in shops or people's wallets so I wouldn't admit to carrying an offensive weapon and hope for the best when further action was taken.

The last thing I want to do is rant about knife laws but I just want to point out how far they have gone to appear to be solving problems without providing fundamental solutions. Knife sales were banned on ebay here a couple years back now apart from kitchen knives. A quick look at knife crime statistics will show a very high percentage of knife crime in the UK is done with kitchen knives due to the easy access to them and the fact they get thrown in a skip or canal after being used maliciously. Nobody is going to wait months and pay top dollar for a custom made knife off someone and go on a spree with it yet the sales of high end custom knives is banned on ebay. Strange decision if you ask me considering you can buy knives on other websites but there is a lot of paranoia here due to the amount of use they get to settle scores on the streets thesedays. Unfortunate but that's the reality.

Fortunately I'm not the type that would arouse any suspicion and have any reason to be stopped and searched for weapons. The above is just what I've read into the knife laws here in the UK, as a maker I'm fairly careful about what I do but I do use and transport knives a fair bit and have yet to have any bother as a result. Things could change but until then I honestly believe the average person with a little folder or even a bigger knife in the right context will be left alone for the most part when they can prove it's being used for a valid reason and responsibly. Don't anyone go quoting me on what I've said about carrying and using knives here as it's just my interpretation of the law, not the actual laws! Insert disclaimer here...

Originally Posted by Bruno

Do you enjoy posting threads that enable you to get up on your high horse and look down at others?

It does get old seeing talk radio stories getting rehashed; I guess there is the option to ignore it though

Originally Posted by Bruno

Do you realize that there are plenty of topics where we could point at you and make fun of how backwards things are in your country?

Matthew 7:3

I'm sure we can count on you to cover that if the need arises

Once again, I've been misunderstood. My intent was not to belittle or gouge anyone else's country. If I came across that way it was not my intention. Believe it or not this was NOT talk radio rehashed. Although I'm a knuckle dragger old GI, I do occassionally have original thoughts. I'm always concerned when a government (American, British, Belgian, Chinese, South African or ANY government) feels compelled to "take care" of the unscrubbed masses. Across the board, in ALL countries, goverments are infringing deeper and deeper into what should be left to individual choices. Some are foolish enough to believe that these efforts are done out of concern for the individual but the truth is that these initiatives more often than not fit into one of two categories. The first is an attempt for the government to take away personal liberty and assert its control on citizens. The second, widely seen in government entitlement programs, is the government's attempt to help themselves to more of our hard earned money and redistribute it to people who have done nothing to deserve it. From where I'm sitting these types of actions amount to tyranny lurking in the carefully constructed lie that our governments gives a damn about any of us. God knows, I'm as patriotic an American as ever lived but let me point out some examples from my own government. The state of New York has decided to fine eateries serving salt. Who the hell are they to tell me how to eat my french fries? The flurry of anti-tobacco legislation is in the same category. If I own a restraunt shouldn't it be MY business if people can smoke after they eat? If others find the environment intolerable, they can take their business somewhere else. And my personally favorite, our First Lady mounts her high horse (with a back yard bigger than most any two women) and attempts to save the poor ignorant masses who still insist that tofu and arugala is NOT a hearty meal. It simply not a government's place to regulate people's lives to that degree. I find laws concerning personal defense (like this one) particularly troubling for two reasons. I promise you this law has NEVER once deterred any criminal from carrying a knife (or for that matter a gun) in recorded history. Ownership of a weapon in Chicago is illegal. So they have no gun violence right? WRONG! Anyone who carries a gun with intent to kill someone has not one concern about breaking a gun ownership law. What if I live in a bad part of London and want to carry a knife for simple self defense? Thanks to laws like this, criminals remain armed and decent people with no intent to harm anyone are required to be defenseless victims.