Thread: Knife Sharpening 101 help

Originally Posted by sidmind

tell me more about the micro bevel, what stone(s) do you use, and how many strokes.

you need to use the finest stone you have for the micro bevel, # of strokes will depend on the stone and the steel , but on average 10 strokes will do.

My expertise was in knife sharpening BEFORE I ever started honing a SR. The tools are similar, but the technique when done free-hand is a learned art form. The Smith's jig and other contraptions work well with blades less than 5", but above this you do well to learn how to create a consistent primary width from tip to heel, then a final micro-bevel for scary sharp toughness. The steel, especially 440 stainless, is very hard and thick on most knives and requires some patience on the lower grits to get a perfect primary bevel. Most guys move too quickly to the next grit thinking they will finish the bevel there. Forget it. Work the bevel until you feel the wire burr along the full length of the blade for the given angle, strop back on both sides to remove it then go to the next grit. My pocket knife and hunting knives are sharp enough to shave with, but it took me months of work to master the water-stones free-hand. You can do it and the reward is awesome. Here are some basic guidelines.

1. If needed, true the blade, remove edge nicks and clean the blade.

2. Start with edge leading strokes, forward and back, on no more than a 1000 grit stone to set the bevel. Hold a constant angle along the edge lifting the handle higher as you approach the curved tip to maintain your angle. A permanent marker is helpful for beginners with a magnifying glass to see the changes. I use a 10x loupe (20x and 30x is too strong). Never touch the tip by going past perpendicular to the tip line. Just sharpen right up to it. Don't worry the tip will get plenty sharp and pointed as the bevel is created. It normally takes me about 10 minutes per inch of blade to set a NEW primary bevel. Always finish with a couple of stropping strokes before going to the next side to remove the burr. Yes, that is a long time! Be patient. The edge should just shave hair on your arm at every point along the blade then you are ready to go up.

3. Do the same thing with a 3-5k stone. Same angles, same stroke and finish with stropping motion.

4. Optional polishing of the bevel is done with the same technique using a 6-8k or higher stone. This improves the appearance and marginally the rust inhibition for carbon blades. But you could just set the micro-bevel at this point.

5. The micro-bevel is the same strokes but with a slightly higher angle with very light pressure. This should be done with alternating strokes a few edge leading then strop back and repeat on the other side. Finally finish with one strop per side for a few final, very light passes.

6. Don't forget to strop on leather to finish and refine that micro-bevel.

I hope these steps will help you. It takes awhile to master a solid angle during your stroke but you can do it and I believe the sharpest edge is obtained with water-stones - by hand!

Working with razors the past year, only helped my knife sharpening abilities. I try to keep it simple and work the basics.
Razors honing has brought this to my knife abilities;
adding more stones /hones of different capabilities.
determining the steel at hand & what stones perform the best on that type of steel.
understanding what type of bevel, should be applied to a specific knife.
To me, "angle & pressure" are the two riddles, that have to be solved, on each individual razor or knife.
The forum members here have taught me a lot. The single most important thing that members here have taught me in regard to sharpening/honing is; that I really knew nothing about either, even though I have sharpened knives since age 8. Once I excepted this fact, the flood gates of knowledge opened up.

Approach your problem an open mind/clean slate; master the basics first.

Originally Posted by sidmind

tell me more about the micro bevel, what stone(s) do you use, and how many strokes.

The knives I make are all Carbon steel, usually with a big scandi bevel on it or sometimes a full flat. I sharpen that to a true zero degree grind on the stones but that makes for a weak edge. It's fine on a carving knife that's left a bit harder but a normally hardened and tempered knife needs a microbevel or convex for a bit of strength. Some swear by convex, personally I prefer the micro.

As others have described the process I won't elaborate too much but I basically start at 1000 and raise the knife slightly from the normal full bevel contacting the stone. Probably about 15 degrees maybe? Not sure but it just kinda feels right! I'll go 2 or 3 strokes each direction until I'm happy then move up to the next stone. The higher the stone the less pressure used. I suppose the main thing is being consistent with your angle as you're working freehand here. When you're happy with the microbevel you can strop it gently raising the blade the same as when it was on the stones. It gives the edge a suprising amount of strength and will rarely see the stones again even with constant use, stropping will maintain it and you won't be removing steel every time you want to touch it up.

IMO
I think each blade requires a bit different angle. Depending on material, use and shape. Its not a razor and I beat the life out of my knives. Factory edge is meaningless (in terms of life or quality), unless from a custom maker or high quality production.

Jeff

I wanted to thank all for the help, I finally have my two knives shaving arm hair, the key to it was the microbevel, I had never thought of doing that until this thread.

I do want to ask some opinions, is the microbevel ever a bad thing? is there any disadvantage to it?

I personally think they're great as you can just strop it before you go out for a weekend and touch it up on your belt if need be. Unless you're battoning through fence posts with nails or wood with really gnarly knots you shouldn't roll or chip the edge if it's been treated/tempered correct. This means you're not removing steel every time you sharpen it like you would on stones. You took a bit away for the microbevel initially but shouldn't need to use stones again unless you really abuse the knife.

It might be worth pointing out I have a dedicated paddle strop for my knives that I use Autosol on. Works a treat. Just scrape the old stuff off with the spine of the knife sometimes and fluff the leather up then add a bit more compound and you're good to go. You can easily polish your blade and bevels with the loaded strop as well. I hope it works for you as well as it does for me! Happiness is a carbon steel blade that cuts like a light sabre!

I built a dedicated paddle strop over the weekend, using Balsa wood and 2'' wide plywood from Hobby Lobby, then used the Green buffing compound from Lowes.
I shaved off the green compound onto the balsa wood, then microwaved it for 15 seconds, it melted the green stuff and then used a paper towel to rub it all in. it's got way more green on it that what is used for razor strops, but hey it's a knife.

This seemed to work really well, and made a 100% improvement after leaving the stones. I was surprised just how well it worked.

All I use is a Lansky fine diamond hone and a King super fine natural hone. I use water for natural and oil for the diamond hone. I just work it back and forth on the fine until I consider it sharp then get it crazy sharp on the super fine. If it's really dull you can do 5 on one side and then five on the other once you've gotten pretty good at keeping your angle where you want it. I've gotten the Ka Bar sharp enough to cut through cold pizza, card board, and 1/4" into the ping pong table below it. Last night I won a bet on weather I could make a cheap chinese winchester shave an arm, it shaved the arm...and then cut the crap out of the kid when he wiped the hair off the blade with a towel.

BTW some people lead with the spine but I always lead with the cutting edge. IMHO it gets the knife sharper.

Originally Posted by sidmind

I wanted to thank all for the help, I finally have my two knives shaving arm hair, the key to it was the microbevel, I had never thought of doing that until this thread.

I do want to ask some opinions, is the microbevel ever a bad thing? is there any disadvantage to it?

A microbevel really has no disadvantages for a knife or chisel. It is one of the strongest geometries that you can put on an edge exceeded only by the perfect convex edge which is not easily acheivable by hand. The chisels for woodworking are all sharpened with a final microbevel. You can even do it on a SR if you don't mind taping the spine for the final edge. But I prefer taking the primary all the way to the final edge so that my stropping and touch ups don't require taping. It is interesting to note that all DE razor blades use a microbevel. In fact most have 2-3 progressive bevels increasing from ~300 to ~500 to a final ~700-900 grit microbevel followed by strops and coatings. Yes, that is far lower than the finishing grit we all use on our SR, but we need this because we don't add teflon or other coatings for smoothness that are applied to most DE's.