Trayvon Martin (pardon me if this subject is verboten.)

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Here's one verifiable source for Kennesaw, GA : Kennesaw Crime Statistics: Georgia (GA) - CityRating.com These stats are much more recent than the earlier article link. The source of actual data on this crime rate report is the FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement. If the FBI was going to "cook" some stats, it would probably be in the "anti-gun" direction instead of "pro-gun" (ref: Hijacking The Second Amendment).

Then again, maybe some percentage of the reported incidents were fudged (perhaps by Kennesaw or GA?) in the hope of acquiring some state or federal crime funding.

EDIT: a news report from 2001 with more verifiable info.

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Unfortunately there can be many reasons for the statistical result. You can't make a generalization that if A happens B is the result. You would have to do a lot of analysis and investigation before reaching any valid conclusion. It's no different than if an anti gun group produced stats from a city where access to guns was restricted and the crime rate went down and they claimed it was because of the law. There could be many reasons for it.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Unfortunately there can be many reasons for the statistical result. You can't make a generalization that if A happens B is the result. You would have to do a lot of analysis and investigation before reaching any valid conclusion. It's no different than if an anti gun group produced stats from a city where access to guns was restricted and the crime rate went down and they claimed it was because of the law. There could be many reasons for it.

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What other reasons might that be?

I'm pretty sure they did a lot of analysis in the CityRating link. The second link compares an anti-gun city of similar size to Kennesaw. An anti-gun group has refused all invitations to even comment about Kennesaw, GA statistics.

Maybe Kennesaw just has LEO's from 1.6 (GA) to 2 (USA) times better than everywhere else. Maybe the Kennesaw water supply is drugged. Maybe all the citizens are just extra-docile for some unexplained reason.

I'd love to hear any of the other numerous conclusions for the large crime reduction, both statewide and nationally? Can you provide any citations/documentation or news reports re. Kennesaw, to support your position, as I have in my previous post in this thread?

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Originally Posted by Sticky

What other reasons might that be?

I'm pretty sure they did a lot of analysis in the CityRating link. The second link compares an anti-gun city of similar size to Kennesaw. An anti-gun group has refused all invitations to even comment about Kennesaw, GA statistics.

Maybe Kennesaw just has LEO's from 1.6 (GA) to 2 (USA) times better than everywhere else. Maybe the Kennesaw water supply is drugged. Maybe all the citizens are just extra-docile for some unexplained reason.

I'd love to hear any of the other numerous conclusions for the large crime reduction, both statewide and nationally? Can you provide any citations/documentation or news reports re. Kennesaw, to support your position, as I have in my last post?

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Maybe there were certain people in Kennesaw that were causing a majority of the trouble and they went to jail, or moved away, or died...Maybe there was a rise in churches and they had a full on revival in Kennesaw. Maybe they had a more effective police force or stepped up their patrol and Kennesaw didn't look as easy a target to criminals. Maybe Jupiter was in retrograde or some crap like that. In Chicago weather impacts the crime rate...there are tons of variables why ANYTHING happens. Those who see that as the only cause do so because they WANT to see that as the only cause...but for the objective folks, we try not to jump to conclusions or take everything that anyone feeds us as the one and only truth. Also, I have no citations/documentation as researching all of the potential variables above (and the other ones that exist) would take more time than is worth it to me.

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Originally Posted by ryanjewell

Maybe there were certain people in Kennesaw that were causing a majority of the trouble and they went to jail, or moved away, or died...
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Or maybe the drop in crime, directly following the "mandatory gun ownership law", isn't exactly a coincidence? The rate before the law passed in 1982 was much higher. It has stayed lower ever since the law passed. What a coincidence...

Then again, I am getting fond of the "drugged water supply" theory...

:OT I realize I am a little off-topic here, but I'd like to quote a humorous, related event.

This was in a letter:

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In 1982, Kennesaw GA Asks Sen. Feinstein for Confiscated Guns

"...It is with keen interest we learned of your strong anti-gun law and your effort to disarm your law-abising citizens... Our interests are common, as we are both attempting to curb crime... I hereby officially and formally request that you allow us to have your surrendered and confiscated weapons, so that we may issue them to our indigent citizens..."

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Here's a link to a photocopy/pdf download of the original letter. The entire letter is even better than the above quote.

The rest of the story reported that Kennesaw didn't get the guns.

Yes, Irving crime has been declining for a long time, but the decline increased with our present Mayor.

They started checking the immigration status of all people that passed through the police. Even when ordered to stop by ICE, they continued to turn illegals over to them. Lulac put out the word for illegals not to come to Irving. This can't be proven by Spendur's standards, but I believe this is a large part of the reason.

I live in N.M and for many years N.M was declared a sanctuary state and the state would not cooperate with the INS period. Did the population of illegals swell in the state? No it didn't.

As to the other issue I have no stats to refute your belief however I don't need any because I am not making any claims you are. It's like if I say to you a flying saucer landed down the block and little green men are outside and turned the tables on you and then said to you prove I'm wrong. If you say the gun law caused the drop in crime it's up to you to demonstrate that claim and stats by themselves can be used to say many things. There are all kinds of possibilities to explain them and they all have to be examined. Certainly you can have your belief as to the cause of the drop in crime however if you want absolutes that takes work, a lot of work.

Let's try this approach then. There are only 5 things that I know of that have fundamentally changed in Irving to coincide with the drop in crime.

#1 CCW Law
#2 Illegal Alien policy.
#3 Alcohol being sold in stores.
#4 Got rid of Cowboy Stadium.
#5 Raised a lot of old buildings.

Ok, it was probably the football fans.

Without a doubt it was the Cowboy Fans; trouble where ever they go !!!

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

You're statement above, I pretty much agree with; so this reply is not meant to be adversarial. My reply is only from a different set of eyes.
When it comes to my life, my loved ones lives or the life of an innocent person, suddenly coming under attack; I do not play the odds. I try to leave home every day with the winning hand. This includes my training with and without firearms. The odds always look good in crime stats; unless you are one of the stats.

In your own words, “the baddest of the bad do not shoot people over a watch or a wallet if the victim is passive and quickly complies”, this is correct for the most part; because the “baddest of the Bad” are working in crews/groups that hit high risk, profitable targets and pull home invasions on other bad guys. The ones that are shooting us over our wallets, are the desperate/mentally ill ones and Pixel, there are a lot of them around. Most of the armed robberies do not make the news, even some of the ones with death the result. I know this first hand, because I have been on these crime scenes many times. Probably every time I stood there and waited for the body to get removed, I wondered what the deceased could have done differently and lived. We all are told/taught by police, parents and Monday Morning Quarterbacks to hand over the requested items and your odds of living through the incident are in your favor. I really do not believe this increases your chance of surviving. I truly believe based on my life’s experience, that a person has made up his mind to kill you, before he requests your valuables in many cases. One fact is for sure, any person who brings a weapon to rob you, has already considered that he may have to use that weapon on you; and in the fact that he still brought the weapon; this indicates that your life is worthless to him, regardless of how much you pay him.
Yes, some people seek out the CCW to make up for feelings of inadequacy in dealing with physical confrontations. A false sense of security at least; a deadly mistake waiting to happen, at most. It’s possible that Zimmerman fell into this category. Only two really know & one is dead.

My CCW is a life insurance policy, of sorts; a policy for me and innocents. A policy that has a very long, detailed “Stupidity Clause”. You really have to read that clause.

CCW Advocates say many things and I agree with your comments on Columbine & V Tech. It’s just that the Anti-Gun Crowd hits us hard with their BS also. We have to try and take a foot of ground where ever we can find it.

If Zimmerman had not had a gun, the kid ( 17 year old young man. When I was 17, I was already signed by the Marines, better shape than most twice my age.) would be alive, but Zimmerman would probably be dead or damaged goods at best. I believe he does have a family to feed. There is no such thing as a “good ole street fight” anymore. In our time, you & I would have fought unarmed and the winner/better fighter would have known when to stop. The winner would have bragging rights in school and our fathers would have put us all in a room to work out our differences verbally, so the fight did not repeat itself. Now its dog eat dog with death or serious injury waiting on the sidelines. This is not our generation in the streets these days.

Just my thoughts.....

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Very well said John! That's exactly how I feel. I'll go even further, when I carry ( wich is 99.5% of the times), I avoid confrontations and treat other that may want a confrontation, with respect as to defuse the confrontation. I also agree with pixel, that some people carry weapons as to feel adecuate with themself. That is why I'm a supporter for psyche eval for all who wants to carry weapons for self defence.

As for Zimmerman and Trevon. It's a tragedy that the kid die! In my view Zimmerman acted outside his powers and is responsible for the kids death. I don't think criminally responsible, but definitely civil court responsible! And that is Double O's take.