I don't know whether to LMAO or start crying. Apparently the enormous sums of money spent on education in this country are working like a champ...NOT!
Worst Family Feud Contestant ever - YouTube
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I don't know whether to LMAO or start crying. Apparently the enormous sums of money spent on education in this country are working like a champ...NOT!
Worst Family Feud Contestant ever - YouTube
Let me help you a bit....
Start crying.
Unless this was staged, a total of 8 adults could not name a single country that starts with "A"
Please understand, I'm not American bashing at all here, as a matter of fact we have similar issues here in Canada. Granted, geography might not be a popular subject, but can you imagine if they asked most of those people to do fractions or calculate a percentage?
The trouble with both our countries right now is that there are too many people that are so full of themselves, they think they don't have to know anything to succeed. Just being "American" (that included Canadian, more and more each day) is enough to make them superior.
Just wait till China, India and Japan effectively own 51% of us...its not that far away. They already out-educate their kids by at least a 5 to 1 ratio.
We're in deep doo doo...its just that most people are too stupid to realize it.
Late edit/addition.....One of the countries that starts with "A" is Afghanistan...remember? The country where 158 Canadian and over 1800 American soldiers gave their lives.
8 adults cannot name that country.
I take it back, we are not in deep doo doo...we are 6 feet over our heads in s**t and we keep piling more on.
End of rant...
What's wrong with this? It has already been championed by famous politicians as 'real america', while trying to improve oneself by education was condemned as 'elitism'.
Ha,ha,ha! Clearly they missed Alabama!... Geez,buncha tards...
You nailed it, Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by joebehar
Well said, Joe. Sad but true. :(
How come Adelaide wasn't on the board?
The movie Idiocracy was meant to be a ridiculous parody but the more I see of the world these days, the more it appears to be a glimpse into the the world of the future. Asia!? A continent, numerous countries with diverse cultures, religions and yes, languages. My wife, a Filipina, is often asked to read Japanese, translate spoken Korean, read Vietnamese, etc. When she politely explains that she is from the Philippines she often gets strange looks as if to say, "Well, so, you all speak the same lanuguage don't you?" It really freaks people out that she can't eat with chopsticks and that her language is written in letters and not characters.
They forgot Apalachicola too (Great Oysters!)
and Alaska...........:gaah:
That's a good point. I work as an Education Coordinator in a prison, and we give all prisoners a numeracy and literacy assessment. It's very basic. Almost none of the prisoners I give the test to can work out 50% of 25, 1/4 of 8 or .25 of 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by joebehar
Now, of course, a prison population is a distinct 'set' of people, and I work in a women's prison, so we have another set of disadvantages.
I have 48% of the Aboriginal population enrolled, and female Aboriginal prisoners, esp those who are older, form one of the most damaged and disadvantaged groups in our society in my opinion.
However, to be honest, when I needed to check a new assessment, I actually had to Google how to do long division. Just prior to working in this particular prison (I've worked in four) I acted as the Business Manager of the prison. I managed a ten million dollar budget. Yet I couldn't do long division. I'm not sure about you, but it's not something I do everyday. I'd forgotten how to do it, but I was still certainly functional.
Some people who can't perform some skills can still be very functional in their particular world.
Geography is a great subject, yet for day to day existence it hardly matters if you know where Norway is, esp if you live in Central Africa, for instance. I guess that's rather an extreme example, I would have thought an American could have named Afghanistan, as it IS important to know just where (and why) you're shipping your children off to die.
But I think it IS important remembering that not all skills that I for instance see as useful will be useful to another.
[EDIT, I'm on a roll]
I, too am concerned that we too are selling my particular country to the highest bidder in big chunks. To sell prime farming land to Asia, given the fragility of the world food supply system, the size and rapidity of growth of the Asian population and the likelihood that areas closer to the equator will find it most difficult to produce food in the future seems a little short-sighted. I understand that it is VITAL for countries like Australia to help to produce food for countries other than our own (because if we don't they'll just come and take it), but one would think it'd be a good idea to at least try and maintain control over one's own actual physical land and crops. Seems to me a little like wanting quick cash right now, so taking he option of selling a spare room in your house rather than renting it out, or selling products you produce in the spare room. Why we actually need to quick cash is a mystery to me; we have one of the strongest economies of the world right now. Of course, as soon as China slows, we'll need to look inwards and become more self sufficient, at least until the hoards come to invade us.
I guess for Australia the only hope is that energy supplies decline at such a rapid rate the rampaging hoards don't have the fuel to get here.
Then we can happily fight against ourselves (which is where the scenario portrayed prophetically in the Mad Max movies could kick in :-)
Now this is true, and I'm glad to see somebody who didn't just swallow the whole hook, line, and sinker.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
The video has nothing to do with education in this country. It is about the celebration of stupidity and incompetence that seems to have found a good place in the current culture, often but not always, as 'reality shows'.
I am not entertained by these things and I do not follow them. In fact I do not own a television set as I am being better informed and better entertained without one.
I respectfully disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
Geography might not play a vital role in most people's day to day lives, but math sure does, and not being able to do simple math or estimations quickly can end up costing you a lot.
What's a better deal, getting 2 pounds of meat for $5.50 or three pounds for $8.00....there are many companies out there that know most consumers are unable to do that math and end up paying more.
You're thinking of redoing your kitchen floors. How do you calculate how many tiles to buy and the total cost of the job if the only price you have is per square foot of tile, or even the cost of a single tile that's a certain size? Do you want to end up with part of your floor left untiled or a bunch of leftover tiles you paid for go to waste?
Simple math.
"their particular world", whatever it is, still means eating and buying stuff.
Geography plays a more important role in understanding the world around us and why things like shipping costs affect the final price of products. If you don't know where Sweden is how can you evaluate the shipping costs of a Volvo car? How many people know that there are quite a few parts of the USA (excluding Alaska) that are actually NORTH of Canada? Don't you think its important to know where your biggest trading partner is?
Education, in all subjects, creates wealth, reduces crime, improves social skills and makes defending against bad guys easier. Rather then letting those who, for any reason, do not have the skills we are talking about live in their particular world, lets bring them into ours. We will pay less, they will make more money, the government will collect more taxes to better our infrastructure and that will cause us to pay less, help them make more money....you get the idea :)
I understand that there will always be a certain percentage (there's that math thing again) of the population that will not get there, but we have to minimize it if we're to have any chance of keeping our freedoms and democracy. Its a fact that oppressive regimes succeed in places where there are a lot of uneducated people.
Maybe if we put it in terms of losing your freedoms and rights, people will take this more seriously.
Darn it all, I said the rant was over...I guess I still have to vent.
well now i know what to get you for your birthday!Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
when i was younger (back in the 80's) i went years without a TV... just did not have enough free time to waste... my parents came to visit and could not handle the no tv bit within 30 hours of them arriving i had a brand new tv and cable they thought i lived in the stone age... as soon as they left i canceled the cable and put the tv in a closet where it sat until their next visit, after that i just left it out and got addicted to it.
I read a long discussion about what is wrong with education today. The upshot of it was TV.
TV is too easy, learning to read is hard. It is almost impossible to get kids to pick up a book. The way I did it was to only allow my kids to stay up past bedtime by reading a book.
My wife teaches biology, chemistry, and physics in high school. These are required courses and the kids mostly don't want to be there. I can't believe how many chances she is _forced_ to give these kids and they still fail because they refuse to do any work at all. She is required to let them take tests 3 times. Most don't bother to take it the second time. Kids are always stealing tests and test keys. She has set traps for the kids that do this. She has some seniors that are still trying to pass freshman courses.
They have parent/teacher nights all the time. She takes the trouble to call the parents of the failing kids. How many show up? On a good night she might get two and she has 168 students.
She is under constant pressure to pass more students whether they have learned anything or not. This she refuses to do.
She has "special needs" (retarded/autistic) students mixed in. They have a special teacher that is supposed to come in and help with testing. She can't get that teacher to do anything at all. She works longer hours than I do and I have a 2 hour commute.
She bought a blue tongue skink an installed it in the classroom as an incentive. She only lets the kids play with it after their work is done. It does help. The kids act like they have never had a pet of any kind at all.
Her biggest problem? She cares, and the students refusal to even try to learn kills her.
To quote an old saying, the apple does not fall far from the tree.
If kids grow up in an environment that values and promotes learning, they will learn.
Good, caring teachers help, but they can't do it all by themselves. We, as parents have to take responsibility. We owe it to our children. They come into the world a blank slate. Its up to us what we choose to imprint on that slate.
I think you guys should just jump into the water and swim the few hundred feet to that big island to the right of you and just take over. Nobody really lives there anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
What sums of money now?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1OldGI
I am an educator and I am not going to rant.
I will merely suggest that education in the United States is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks. Many of the systems that are described as having the best education do not include all. School, above a middle school education, is something to be earned in many countries. One is required to pass certain boards and examinations both written and oral in order to even get into the High School level.
So perhaps I will rant a little.
Many are given the chance to move into a trade or apprentice program. The U.S. has moved away from this paradigm and has greatly suffered. We say every student needs to be in a college track and expect them to do exactly that when some would be just as happy as a car mechanic. Honestly, my mechanic makes about three times my salary and had no formal college education (was he educated? yes.). There is need for every type of job, but we cannot live by the addage that everyone is inherently equal in mental capacity, and/or that everyone is needed or intended to be the same. I am much happier knowing that there is a diverse population that would gladly learn different trades and that the money isn't the only decision maker on what type of job you perform.
Do I think that there are better education systems? Yes. Does that mean that the entire population of that country is smarter? No. Fortunately for this country we still have some great educators and the most extensive post primary education in the world. We still have innovation that other countries envy and do their best to steal. We put more stock in advancement and technology, and are decades ahead of many countries. And thankfully many great minds from abroad want to live here. I do see a regression, but it is not the norm.
Last bit I'd like to share. I would bet that less than 20% of all U.S. adults could even list half of the States and State Capitals (without looking them up).
[QUOTE=Yochatman;958032}
Do I think that there are better education systems? Yes. Does that mean that the entire population of that country is smarter? No. Fortunately for this country we still have some great educators and the most extensive post primary education in the world. We still have innovation that other countries envy and do their best to steal. We put more stock in advancement and technology, and are decades ahead of many countries. And thankfully many great minds from abroad want to live here. I do see a regression, but it is not the norm.
Last bit I'd like to share. I would bet that less than 20% of all U.S. adults could even list half of the States and State Capitals (without looking them up).[/QUOTE]
I think a major problem with our post primary education system is it is flat too expensive and it shouldn't be will all the government support it gets.
Also, colleges are too willing to give out degrees in areas that are totally useless unless you are going to teach. What good is a Fine Arts degree outside of college?
Yochatman,
Just to be clear, I was not berating the education system in either your country or mine, but rather the fact that there are too many people that simply have an insufficient education..period.
Skilled trades area hugely important part of any economy and they pay well. There is no shame whatsoever in being a mechanic, plumber or electrician. They are all honorable trades.
I happen to be the least educated person in my immediate family. My wife has two university degrees, my son is a college graduate and my daughter will be doing her Master's degree (followed by a PhD) in genetics this fall.
Having said all that, I'm well enough versed in math, geography and english to have been able to support my family and send two kids through college and university. What I'm trying to get across is that there are many types of education and knowledge, but the basics such as numeracy and literacy are sorely lacking today.
Clarification...basic numeracy and literacy means more than being able to count and read and write simple text. it means being able to take those skills and use them to understand more complex things.
Honestly, there are many great areas where a FA degree can be used to good advantage. But what specialization? A dramaturg will write things that you may want to see on television or on the stage. A music therapist may get a severly autistic child to speak. A person with a Master's in Fine Arts may run the gambit from a Professor to a Producer to a Movie star. Many degrees may seem useless to one who receives but does not apply that degree. Plato asserted that "To sing well and to dance well is to be well educated!" One of the greatest minds of all time! Don't discount anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalus
while not huge considerable: in 1983 one of my neighbors was delighted his daughter had chosen Syracuse for a college... it was 3k less a year than the private high school he paid for.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
late wife went to miss porter's 20k a year back in the early 80's .... it is 50k now pretty much the top end for a great girl's school.
public school... the year i graduated there were 427 kids k-12 in my school... debt free district.. the budget was $1.1million ~$2576 per kid per year, 2011-2012 budget $8.3million with 358 kids, k-12, or ~$23184 per child per year... still debt free. the nearest private school charges $17.5k a year.... i want to close the school and get all the kids a private education and the tax payers can have a little relief.
sure the teachers are moderately paid (starting pay is ~5k a year above the district average income)
so yup not a big amount of money, and that is the reason i think school, county, state and federal employees should not be allowed to be unionized... public service is good but when you want real money suck it up and get a private sector job.
here endeth the rant .... I'm putting on my body armor and releasing the hounds to slow people making it to the house... the gate is already locked!
I agree, to some extent. Sadly those were things that were required by the 8th grade when education was more than High Stakes Testing! Now we teach to a test, and that is the worst possible thing we could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by joebehar
If two pounds of beef cost $5.50, and three punds of beef cost $8.00, which of the following would you do?
A) I am a vegetarian, I wouldn't buy either
B) I would buy 2 pounds $5.50/2=2.75 which is more than $8.00/3=$2.67
C) 3 pounds of beef is more than I would use.
D) I would buy both because my parents are rich
That is how they would see the purchase of beef at a grocery store.
I forgot
E) How much is the Chicken?
The Fine Arts also produce the backbone of any capitalist, free market economy; advertising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yochatman
nice example... i believe that my duty to other's children education ends when they can read and hopefully understand the no trespassing signs on the property lines and do basic math like giving me correct change for a purchase. beyond that it is the parents job to see to their education and associated costs. however i will allow that teaching trades and life skills is OK but simply warehousing young people until they reach a certain age is not educating them... many people know early on whether they want a college education or to work in a trade. if that was identified earlier and then the kids were educated to those ends we would be better off on the whole. trying to teach things to people who do not want to learn is frustrating, i know that from training people to do work ... those who are just there because they need a job hold back the people who actually want the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yochatman
look at the craftsmen around here if they did not enjoy the task of restoring or making razors do you really think they would produce such nice razor porn?
Oh, come on Jim, why would you be wasting your money? Guns and ammo are way way cheaper and much more effective :)Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
yes but that is my reply to people calling to solicit funds for starving children... i always offer them guns and ammo... and explain how they are much more humane :dropjaw:Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
jim
Maybe the producers paid the contestants to give ridiculous answers so that the show would gain publicity on internet forums :hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1OldGI
In which case these producers ought to be fired on the spot. Their job is to select people who would give such answers without having to be paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
You've been living the socialist life for far too long - your worldview is all skewed!
I doubt it and the reason I think so is because a couple of years ago my wife's best friend and her family were selected as contestants for this show. My wife's best friend and her husband are both teachers, her father has his degree in engineering, and yet being very smart people, they did not win a single round. Granted, they too gave some fantastically stupid answers, but they said they were so nervous they couldn't think. During one of the commercial breaks, a producer came over to them and said he couldn't believe how bad they were doing. I have the episode on tape and it's hard to watch, but we suffer through it when they come to visit and we laugh and have a great time discussing how bad they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
There was a report out just yesterday that more than 50% of college grads are unable to find a job in their chosen field.
There needs to be more thought about the market when choosing a degree.
Or we need to do something to fix the economy. Not everyone is cut out to be a Doctor or a Nurse, and in many cases, that's where the jobs are right now. There are other highly skilled positions available, and a few unskilled, but looking through the want ads around here, it's mostly "work from home" schemes that I see popping up. Sadly too many people fall for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalus
Personally I think this says more about the TV show becoming outdated than the education system failing. I mean seriously - faced with naming 5 countries starting with the letter A who doesn't google it? There are now about 20 ways we can access the web with personal devices - it is way more convenient than keeping unnecessary information in our heads.
They should rename the show Wikipedia Wars and just own up to what is reality nowadays - the "smart" people are the ones with the fastest access to the web.
On the subject of University graduates finding jobs, the problem began by making these organisations vocational in the first place. Universities are not places to train for a job IMO. The only reason I even bother to teach undergrads anything at all is the (vain) hope that every 10 years or so a couple of them might come along that have half a brain that I can then take advantage of for 3-5 years to do my research for me as grad students. And even that rort is being ruined because now the bean counters want PhD completions within 3.5 years!!! The world is going to hell in a hand basket!
James.
Great points from all and a wonderful discussion. Thanks Jimbo, for years I've railed against universities functioning and being widely perceived as vocational schools. For the most part, people's response has typically been, "What other reason would anyone have for going to college?" I guess knowledge for knowledge sake is just another charming anachronism some of us still cling doggedly to. Nice to have one of my many oddities validated by a man of your education.
My OP was undoubtedly a drastic oversimplification of the problem it's not about politics, spending on education (or lack thereof), and people certainly didn't suddenly become a stupider species (despite what we are force fed daily in the media and/or pop culture. ) The "Kinder, Gentler World" that has emerged since my childhood is probably the biggest culprit here. Young children these days are raised to be acompetitive from their earliest days. Why work your butt off to be the best football player on the team when you'll get the same trophy that the worst player in the league will get? The same mentality of "everyone is equally excellent" extends to our kids' education. How do you make everyone academically excellent? You make the standard for excellence achievable to everyone, even the mediocre or marginal performers. Suddenly everyone is an excellent scholar destined for remarkable success at the college level. Heaven forbid any of our children experience rejection or disappointment. Those of us who grew up in the real world (and certainly those who teach at the university level) know this idea is not only completely untrue but patently ridiculous. How many round pegs has our culture of egalitarianism hammered into the square holes of academia?
Lest I be accused of any variety of elitism, I understand that academic success does not equal intelligence; a concept hammered home by years of working with Air Force officers. Just as straight razor shaving, cigars and pipes aren't for everyone, college is not for everyone. In a less "kind and gentle" world, this was understood. A kid that had a passion for working on cars, making stuff out of wood, or metal fabrication was encouraged and provided opportunities to pursue that passion. These days, few such opportunities exist. The expectation is that everyone goes to college.
Emerson said it far better than I: "Our culture has truckled to the times--to the senses. It is not manworthy. If the vast and the spiritual are omitted, so are the practical and the moral. It does not make us brave or free. We teach boys to be such men as we are. We do not teach them to aspire to be all they can.. We do not give them a training as if we believed in their noble nature. We scarce educate their bodies. We do not train the eye and the hand. We exercise their understandings to the apprehension and: comparison of some facts, to a skill in numbers, in words; we aim to make accountants, attorneys, engineers; but not to make able, earnest, great-hearted men. The great object of Education should be commensurate with the object of life. It should be a moral one; to teach self-trust; to inspire the youthful man with an interest in himself; with a curiosity touching his own nature; to acquaint him with the resources of his mind, and to teach him that there is all his strength, and to inflame him with a piety towards the Grand Mind in which he lives. Thus would education conspired with the Divine Providence. A man is a little thing whilst he works by and for himself, but, when he gives voice to the rules of love and justice, is godlike, this word is current in all countries; and all men, though his enemies, are made his friends and obey it as their own."
That's fine, I like it when people disagree, respectfully or otherwise, it gives me a chance to re-think my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by joebehar
Of course you're right in a lot of ways, I certainly don't mean to say that basic numeracy is not needed or worthless, of course it is. I'm talking about what I or you may think is needed may not be for others. People SHOULD learn basic maths, of course they should, for all the reasons you mentioned. But a LOT of people have complex coping mechanisms and strategies and supports. I'm talking about people who would NEVER contemplate re-tiling a kitchen floor.
I have clients at work who have never worked, who drink to the point of intoxication everyday, who vomit blood. When I'm told by my Department that they 'must' address their numeracy and literacy deficiencies, I say 'why'. Why would Mary need to be able to work out percentages? So she knows what percent of a carton is still to be drank? Certainly I address their needs. And, in fact, you hit on a really important point, that I guess you (and others) already know. Education for adults MUST be in context and MUST be relevant for THEM. Teaching Mary logarithm tables (I'm showing my age now) is useless. Teaching her how to cook, how to fill in a form, and how to use a CALCULATOR to add up prices in a supermarket and budget is or course very important. Mary could not care LESS where Norway is, unless she intends to migrate there because they have really, really cheap wine.
Oh, BTW, I'd rather people actually critically analyse what their politicians are doing to their country, their 'freedom' their 'rights' etc. Wouldn't it have been interesting if the quiz show had the question "Why are we in Afghanistan"?
Oh, another BTW, I agree that education reduces crime (recidivism), the stats 'sort of' prove it (more on that on request :-)). However, basic skills lead to a basic job with basic pay, and that's not enough to get crims out of the crime cycle. But, we also need to be honest, some people are NOT going to get their college degree, the best we can teach them is how to get clean needles. I actually think a LOT of our (Australian) education system is completely pointless. I'm currently selecting units from a new curriculum, and need to keep the number of units to less than about 15. It'll be interesting to see what we come up with. I also intend to install an oven in the education centre and use cooking to teach literacy and numeracy; again, relevance and context.
As a joke, one of our correctional educators came up with a test that they thought had great relevance, it went along the lines of:
1. T. Nguyen has a kilo of heroin that he bought for x$. He splits it at a ratio of 100:1 with baking powder. If he sells bags of his mix at x$/bag, uses 10% for himself, how much profit has he made, considering he needs to pay $1000 for protection?
Very rude, generalistic and politically incorrect, but it makes a point...(as I, of course, do not) :-)
Best wishes, Carl...
And they missed ArkansasQuote:
Originally Posted by Wintchase
Carl,Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
You make some very valid and interesting points. Very sobering (excuse the pun) and some of them downright scary.
I admit that my thoughts did not go to the type of people you deal with routinely. I guess they would fall into that percentage I mentioned. Yes, teaching Mary how to cook and calculate food prices in the market is probably the best we can hope for and we should concentrate on that. I guess if she's sober and not panhandling for money, she can do well enough without knowing where Norway is :)
I think we basically agree, we just happened to say it differently. Maybe my expectations are too high.
Now, as far as logarithmic tables go...I always lost them in my mess of papers, so I just learned how to use a slide rule..how's that for showing my age? It wasn't till my last year of high school that calculators were available for less than $100, and at that time $100 was a number 10 high school students could maybe put together. Besides, the batteries in my slide rule never died in the middle of an exam. The only downside (or maybe its actually a plus) is that you actually have to know some math in the first place to use a slide rule.
And yes, I still have my slide rule and I still know how to use it. Every once in a while I'll take it out just to give the kids something to laugh at.
Hey!!:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Maybe he's talking about Papua New Guinea? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by EisenFaust
Right is relative, yes?
You mean folks do live there? I be under the impression the place was really called New Seal-land and named that because a bunch of Seals lived there but the folk couldn't spell too good so they mistaked a Z for an S.Quote:
Originally Posted by EisenFaust