Where Do We Draw The Line?

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Originally Posted by epd

Ill put my 2 cents Joe,
As pixelfixed put it, if they are going to foot the cost, they can make the rules.

As an x-smoker I have a little sympathy for the shop owner, lets face it, most of us enjoy a smoke of some sort once in a while, however, smoking puts a massive strain on out health care system and IMO should be outlawed, its borderline suicide (IMO- touchy subject).
Again IMO the government is a running business and will take any necessary steps to protects its own interests (or ours ;) ).
I have recently seen the light and realize now that if im not satisfied with the way my country is running, I should pick a country who does things better and migrate.

Just my two cents...

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epd...I would have no problem whatsoever if our government outlawed tobacco products. I think it would be a good thing, but will probably never happen as its too big an industry.

Having said that, as long as a businessman is selling a legal product and the government is collecting taxes from him he deserves to be treated fairly.

As far as migrating because we don't like something...I'll give you my $0.02 worth. Its every bit as much my country as theirs. I'd rather stay and fight than let beurocratic bullies chase me away.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The biggest problem I have with government is that it does absolutely nothing well or efficiently.

Social Security - Bankrupt.
Post Office - Bankrupt.
Medicare - Bankrupt and full of fraud.
Obamacare will push us over the financial cliff.

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Perhaps. But is private industry doing it better?
Decent healthcare coverage is becoming so expensive in the US that many can't afford it. It was like that before Obama got elected. In fact, it is so bad that it GOT him elected. And that is if you don't lose your job, because if you do, then you get dumped. One person here on this forum cut his fingers to the bone and didn't want to go to the ER because of what it would cost him. Over here, that would not be a consideration.

I've argued this before: our healthcare system does not have fat insurance company and expensive lawyers. It only has the clients and the providers. And a government sponsored administration. As a result, our healthcare is much cheaper than yours. And not only do I get covered, but so do people who are in between jobs or disabled.

Perhaps Americans are unable to make it work, but for other countries it is working just fine.
There is nothing wrong with the principle of socialized healthcare. And personally, I think it is more important that the general population gets affordable healthcare than that insurance companies and medical lawyer can make increasing profits quarter over quarter.

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Originally Posted by joebehar

Oil sands crude sells right now on the open market and it makes a profit...at about $90 a barrel. I don't think any company will sell at a loss of $30 a barrel.

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And the Canadian taxpayers pay the difference.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The biggest problem I have with government is that it does absolutely nothing well or efficiently.Post Office - Bankrupt.

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I don't think it's fair to blame the government for the state of the postal system. If anything, blame Al Gore for creating the internet.:p

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Originally Posted by gugi

And the Canadian taxpayers pay the difference.

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That's just simply not true.

Yes, it's easy to say the Post office and all the others that are in bad shape and pin the blame on the Govt. The fact is if you turned it over to private industry to run you know what would happen. They would just raise the prices and cut the service so they made the profit they want. Maybe you think the health care passed by Congress will bankrupt the country but the fact is that is happening right now with the system we have. The stats are out there on that.

When folks rant about how dare the Govt tell them they must buy health insurance I say how dare you tell me I have to pay for your health care.

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Originally Posted by joebehar

That's just simply not true.

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Well, it's easy to make declarative statements, but could you please first check how much of the cost of the cleanup, carbon emissions, related health problems, and water scarcity is currently born by the producers? And the worldwide trends are that they will have to factor in those in the future. Plus the current cost depends on easy accessibility of the tar sands, but most of that is depleted and in-situ extraction means another $5-$35/barrel in production costs.

You mean as opposed to oil that comes from an oppressive dictatorship that does not have a clue as to what a basic human right is and has absolutely zero environmental standards?

Do you really believe that Saudi Arabia and Iran are as concerned about the environment as we are here?

Even if it meant an additional $5 per barrel we would keep jobs and money domestically as opposed to sending them to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran or a host of other places that are not exactly friendly to us.

May I suggest you pick up a copy of "Ethical Oil" by Ezra Levant? or you can go to the ethical oil website for more information.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The biggest problem I have with government is that it does absolutely nothing well or efficiently.

Social Security - Bankrupt.
Post Office - Bankrupt.
Medicare - Bankrupt and full of fraud.

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And the private industry is better? The medicare is more efficient than the private alternatives - check the reports with the numbers, not the propaganda.
Social security - let's compare it to what matters, the private citizen's version of it. Most people's assets (home value, stocks & bonds) are down by X%.
Post Office - compare to the alternative, a private company providing postal service to every household in the country. Let me ask you a question - why don't you use FedEx, UPS, or DHL for every single piece of mail you send out?
I also keep getting these 'USP innovations' packages from business who offer 'free shipping' for very low cost items. They drop them off at my local post office and have the USPS delivery person bring them to my house.

The government's role is to provide services for every single citizen. When you transfer that to a private business they provide these services only to those who are profitable to provide services to. It's that simple.
Then you draw the line at whatever place you value your individualism vs. your nationality.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The real problem is no term limits and career politicians. Have you noticed how ALL of them are rich? The founders never intended for public service to be a lifetime job.

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Now, this one I don't believe for a second.

I was pretty sure that only people draw the line... maybe I was fooled all this time.... I guess many institution has wrong people in charge drawing wrong lines....