Where Do We Draw The Line?

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Originally Posted by joebehar

You mean as opposed to oil that comes from an oppressive dictatorship that does not have a clue as to what a basic human right is and has absolutely zero environmental standards?

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Did I ever say that the international oil companies don't have high costs that they externalize? How about the security provided by the US international policies, backed by the US military, fully paid by the US taxpayers?

The only difference is the likelihood of these cost externalizations changing.


It's like asking for the low cost manufacturing to come back to the western world. If you allow for slavery, workers abuse, destruction of the environment all these jobs can be back from the 3rd world countries. The chances of this happening are pretty slim, but on the other hand the chances of people in the west continuing to support with their wallets the exact same things in far away lands are pretty high.

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Originally Posted by gugi

Did I ever say that the international oil companies don't have high costs that they externalize? How about the security provided by the US international policies, backed by the US military, fully paid by the US taxpayers?

The only difference is the likelihood of these cost externalizations changing.


It's like asking for the low cost manufacturing to come back to the western world. If you allow for slavery, workers abuse, destruction of the environment all these jobs can be back from the 3rd world countries. The chances of this happening are pretty slim, but on the other hand the chances of people in the west continuing to support with their wallets the exact same things in far away lands are pretty high.

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You're absolutely right in that gugi...IMO that's what got us into the sad state we're in right now. Greed, as good as it is, has to be tempered. The overall North American economy was nothing short of amazing till we decided that we were "too good" to actually make stuff. Now we're struggling.

Here's the strange part...it seems there's a long line up to complain and wring hands while the line up to do something about it is almost non existent. I don't buy the whole "I'm just one person, what effect can I have" argument. Believe me, I know all about needing to save money and having to be frugal, but I also try my damnest to keep my money domestically. I might only have a 1% chance of it coming back to me, but that's 1% more than if I send it to someplace else...especially a place that has a significant population that wants me either subservient to them or dead.

Now, just think of the savings we could have if we didn't need that military to secure those places...ya think it would amount to $5 a barrel? :) I have not even mentioned the reduction in fine men and women that that would not have to make the ultimate sacrifice as well. overall, I think your argument is actually in favor of cutting off foreign oil...you just don't realize it yet :)

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're on that list of hand wringers, but if we're going to turn this thing around we need more awareness and certainly more action by regular folk like you and me.

I'm enjoying this discussion. Its open and honest.

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Originally Posted by joebehar

overall, I think your argument is actually in favor of cutting off foreign oil...you just don't realize it yet :)

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I am in favor of 'free market', and if that means cutting off foreign oil, I'm certainly fine with it. However the reality isn't that straightforward. People are mostly selfish even when they're dumb and vote against their self-interest. One of the arguments I got here last time I suggested that the US spends too much on military was that so many of these people who are 'serving their country' will be unemployed.
At the end it's 'governmental wasteful spending' only when you're against it (usually because of 'beliefs' not because of any rational thinking).

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Originally Posted by joebehar

The overall North American economy was nothing short of amazing till we decided that we were "too good" to actually make stuff.

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This is a quote from a post I wrote about a year ago. I'm too lazy to update it with the most current data and retype it, but it still holds true:


International trade is not the problem with our economy:
Until 2009, Canada was a bigger trade partner with the US than China, yet people rarely complain about outsourcing to Canada...

Nearly 90% of our goods and services are produced here. Of the remaining 10%, we do have a trade deficit, but after you account for exports (=American jobs) the trade deficit is only roughly 3% of GDP (to be fair, trade with China does account for about 1/3 of that deficit).

One other fun statistic that may surprise you: we actually have a HUGE trade SURPLUS with Hong Kong.

International Trade Administration for all the foreign trade statistics you want.

From an economic standpoint it actually makes sense (=is better for the American worker) to do some of the manufacturing elsewhere. The rhetoric that it is killing America is wrong. Google "comparitive advantage" for help understanding why foreign trade is good.

I trust your facts and figures, but I have a question...why are we up to our ass in alligators?

If we kept more of our money here, we would create more jobs, generate more tax dollars and overall stimulate our economy more. I'm not an isolationist, by any stretch, but it just seems so much more logical.

now, i do admit that we would then have another problem..being flush with cash, I'm sure our government would act quickly to squander most of it away again..LOL

Its a never ending thing, is it? :)

You've probably heard it discussed with taxes before: big piece of a small pie vs small piece of a big pie... It works with foreign trade just like it does with taxes (interestingly the people that buy into it for one side tend not to buy into it for the other side) - We could keep ALL of our money here, and severely shrink our economy - or we can trade and grow the economy, while sending some of our money elsewhere.

When people discuss where the money goes, the fact that the ecomony can shrink or grow as a result tends to be overlooked.

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Originally Posted by joebehar

If we kept more of our money here, we would create more jobs, generate more tax dollars and overall stimulate our economy more. I'm not an isolationist, by any stretch, but it just seems so much more logical.

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Same reason for not producing everything locally, say in your state, your county, your village, your estate?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Perhaps. But is private industry doing it better?
Decent healthcare coverage is becoming so expensive in the US that many can't afford it. It was like that before Obama got elected. In fact, it is so bad that it GOT him elected. And that is if you don't lose your job, because if you do, then you get dumped. One person here on this forum cut his fingers to the bone and didn't want to go to the ER because of what it would cost him. Over here, that would not be a consideration.

I've argued this before: our healthcare system does not have fat insurance company and expensive lawyers. It only has the clients and the providers. And a government sponsored administration. As a result, our healthcare is much cheaper than yours. And not only do I get covered, but so do people who are in between jobs or disabled.

Perhaps Americans are unable to make it work, but for other countries it is working just fine.
There is nothing wrong with the principle of socialized healthcare. And personally, I think it is more important that the general population gets affordable healthcare than that insurance companies and medical lawyer can make increasing profits quarter over quarter.

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You don't have to be able to afford healthcare. It has always been and is still free for the needy. You just have to put up with the long lines at the designated Emergency Room.

What will fix our healthcare will take a long time but you can see the results of the proper direction in a few areas. Right now healthcare costs so much because people on insurance don't know or care what it costs. They only care about their deductible.

What needs to happen is healthcare needs to be forced into the open market.

Lasik surgery, back treatments, lap bands, body scanning, and others are affordable and wide spread because they are in competition with each other with advertised prices. I think if all medicine was exposed to the free market like this prices would come down dramatically and quality would improve at the same time. The same is true of insurance. If companies were free to compete across state lines insurance rates would improve as well.

We need less regulation, not more.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yes, it's easy to say the Post office and all the others that are in bad shape and pin the blame on the Govt. The fact is if you turned it over to private industry to run you know what would happen. They would just raise the prices and cut the service so they made the profit they want. Maybe you think the health care passed by Congress will bankrupt the country but the fact is that is happening right now with the system we have. The stats are out there on that.

When folks rant about how dare the Govt tell them they must buy health insurance I say how dare you tell me I have to pay for your health care.

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What sense does it make to run the postal system at a loss? There are more postal employees now than they can use. Many are paid to sit in a room and not work because they are unionized and can't be fired. Making it public and adding competition would make the price and employee levels make sense.

Healthcare costs are rising faster right now because of Obamacare before it is even fully implemented. Mandates like kids until 26 years old and mandated freebies are already driving up costs.

We already have doctors refusing Blue Cross patients because Blue Cross doesn't pay. Obamacare is promising the same end. Doctors will be forced to treat more for less and many will just quit.

I just hope the Supreme Court sees that it is Unconstitutional and throws out the whole law.

The legislators need to READ the law before they vote on it. Pelosie's statement, "We need to pass this law so we can find out what's in it", AAARRRGGGHHHHH!!

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

You don't have to be able to afford healthcare. It has always been and is still free for the needy. You just have to put up with the long lines at the designated Emergency Room.

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Where they get the most expensive care option possible.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

Right now healthcare costs so much because people on insurance don't know or care what it costs. They only care about their deductible.

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May be they should pay for their insurance out of their paycheck, instead of having their employers deduct it for them. How about giving them the same tax deductions as employers get (or stop the tax deductions altogether) and let them make their own decision what insurance to buy with their money. Then stop providing that free 'emergency service' option and let those who make poor decisions suffer the full consequences of these decisions. If somebody is so sick that nobody is willing to insure them or pay for their medical bills, then they should simply be left to die. You want to get rid of all 'unfairness' - it's not that hard to do.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The same is true of insurance. If companies were free to compete across state lines insurance rates would improve as well.

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Just like the banks competed on all those fees they used to charge, right? Or the way the insurance companies fought for all those uninsured people. You should talk to Undream, he got a sweet deal on flood insurance on his house.