A father's Love and Rage

Last weekend, Shiner Texas.

A 23 year old man was doing some work on his farm with some acquaintances helping.

He handed his 4 year old daughter a bucket of feed and told her to go in the barn and feed the chickens.

Apparently a 40 year old acquaintance he didn't know very well lead his daughter into the bushes and started to sexually molest her.

The brother spotted them and told the father. The father saw them and hit the man several times in the head. The molester died at the scene.

The father has not been arrested. The police expect the grand jury to no-bill the father.

Did the father cross the line? Did the molester get what he deserved?

Isn't that called taking the law into your own hands? In the UK there is a 'rule' regarding appropriate action - many householders have been arrested for defending themselves and their property against burglar/housebreakers and exceeding the so-called appropriate response. Your US farmer would stand a very good chance of serving a long sentence in this country. Not a judgement - merely an observation.

My opinion, justifiable homicide. The father probably saved over a hundred other children from the same fate as well. The daughter is likely in for a rough life full of therapy however. At least no more damage will be done by that particular pos.

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Originally Posted by UKRob

Isn't that called taking the law into your own hands? In the UK there is a 'rule' regarding appropriate action - many householders have been arrested for defending themselves and their property against burglar/housebreakers and exceeding the so-called appropriate response. Your US farmer would stand a very good chance of serving a long sentence in this country. Not a judgement - merely an observation.

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There is a distorted view of this around in the UK - you *can* use reasonable force to defend yourself and your family. 'Reasonable' force can be deadly force if you believe at the time that your life is endangered. Couple of examples:

shopkeeper in 2011

Householder kills one of four masked intruders.

In response to the OP: Personally I don't think father was out of line. What more provocation could there be?

Nothing has been said yet about the father's intent. I think they would have to prove that his intent was to kill and not just stop.

I believe the answer is simple, yes he was wrong by attacking the man.
Would any of us dads do the same? Of course, and wear the consequences proudly.
Did the molester get what he deserved? Debatable, Prison would have likely been torture for this POS.

he was perfectally Justified IMO,will be a manslaughter charge that will be dismissed due to a fit of rage plea.
That assh&&l diserved what he got,If he was 100% guilty of doing so.

Cant say i wouldnt do the exact same ... consequences or not ... wouldnt even hesitate.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Matt69

There is a distorted view of this around in the UK - you *can* use reasonable force to defend yourself and your family. 'Reasonable' force can be deadly force if you believe at the time that your life is endangered. Couple of examples:

shopkeeper in 2011

Householder kills one of four masked intruders.

In response to the OP: Personally I don't think father was out of line. What more provocation could there be?

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What I find strange about the UK, is the story about the Farmer that had had his home invaded before by burglars. This time he had a shotgun and used it.
The farmer got jail time. Why jail time for a shotgun and no arrest for a knife when the outcome was the same?

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

What I find strange about the UK, is the story about the Farmer that had had his home invaded before by burglars. This time he had a shotgun and used it.
The farmer got jail time. Why jail time for a shotgun and no arrest for a knife when the outcome was the same?

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The farmer was quite a controversial case. He shot a fleeing, unarmed, teenage burglar in the back, with an illegally-owned weapon. That certainly gave the prosecution quite a lot to play with. (His name is Tony Martin if you want to google him, I'm sure there's tons of coverage.)

Personally I don't think he should have been jailed - he lived in a very rural area, and he had been repeatedly burgled over the preceding years. The police, when he had called them on previous occasions, had just turned up the day after and given him a crime number. Few of my friends agree with me on this, but I think the state lost its right to a monopoly on violence in Martin's case, because it failed in its side of the deal ("Citizens lose the right to mete out violence/ take the law into their own hands and in return the state uses its monopoly of violence to protect those citizens").

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

Nothing has been said yet about the father's intent. I think they would have to prove that his intent was to kill and not just stop.

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I'd think this would be the crux of the issue. Punch him a few times and oops, he's dead -- that's one thing. Knock him unconscious and then pummel him until you can't lift your arms any more, that's something else.

I wrote about this on facebook a few days ago when this happened. In my opinion the father acted justly, with out a deadly weapon or intent to kill the man. He was defending someone who could not defend themselves.

The incident was slightly different than the op but the the sherrif said the following: (taken from CNN)

Asked whether they would press charges against the father, the sheriff responded, "You have a right to defend your daughter. He acted in defense of his third person. Once the investigation is completed we will submit it to the district attorney who then submits it to the grand jury, who will decide if they will indict him."

Harmon described the dad as "very remorseful," adding that he didn't know the man was going to die.

Authorities were withholding the deceased man's name while they notified next of kin. Officials did not know immediately if he has a prior criminal history.

Provoked beyond the limits of human endurance. Justifiable homicide that would be my defense in his shoes.

I think the guy performed a community service honestly. Child molesters will victimize hundreds of kids before they age out of it or go to prison long though to never get out again. Some percentage of them even become killers in order to better avoid detection or first hand witnesses.

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Originally Posted by Matt69

The farmer was quite a controversial case. He shot a fleeing, unarmed, teenage burglar in the back, with an illegally-owned weapon. That certainly gave the prosecution quite a lot to play with. (His name is Tony Martin if you want to google him, I'm sure there's tons of coverage.)

Personally I don't think he should have been jailed - he lived in a very rural area, and he had been repeatedly burgled over the preceding years. The police, when he had called them on previous occasions, had just turned up the day after and given him a crime number. Few of my friends agree with me on this, but I think the state lost its right to a monopoly on violence in Martin's case, because it failed in its side of the deal ("Citizens lose the right to mete out violence/ take the law into their own hands and in return the state uses its monopoly of violence to protect those citizens").

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There is the difference between the UK and Texas. If your home is invaded at night, you have to right to use deadly force.

If someone is running away with your property and you have reason to believe the only way to recover you property is to shoot, you are allowed to.

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Originally Posted by northpaw

I'd think this would be the crux of the issue. Punch him a few times and oops, he's dead -- that's one thing. Knock him unconscious and then pummel him until you can't lift your arms any more, that's something else.

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In a fit of rage,the human brain reverts to the animal we all are.is no thinking going on,no reasoning,no morals, no compassion,NADA,you are protecting your offspring as any animal would do.
We may be at the apogee of the animal kingdom as humans,but thank god we can still in a time of protecting the fruit of our loins,Kill them,sadley, the american judicial system may see it that way:(

If I were that father and had caught him actually molesting my daughter, I would have done the same thing without any remorse and would be happy to explain that one to my maker when the time came.

Will N.

If I were in the father's shoes, i'd be too much of an ass to kill him. He'd be stripped, tied to a barrel and introduced to the horniest bull I could find. And in my mind the molester would deserve every bit of it.

A group of people will meet and study the action over many days and make a decision. Whether they decide to prosecute or not doesn't matter because no jury in Texas will convict him. If it was N.Y or California he would probably plea out to some reduced charge.

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Originally Posted by Theseus

If I were in the father's shoes, i'd be too much of an ass to kill him. He'd be stripped, tied to a barrel and introduced to the horniest bull I could find. And in my mind the molester would deserve every bit of it.

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That sort of sub-human might just enjoy that:)

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

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Did the father cross the line? ..............?

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...only if he had thrown him on the grill afterwards; there are some things that even a Texan won't eat.



.......yes, I love Texas, just kidding.

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Originally Posted by Theseus

If I were in the father's shoes, i'd be too much of an ass to kill him. He'd be stripped, tied to a barrel and introduced to the horniest bull I could find. And in my mind the molester would deserve every bit of it.

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I hope I never p*ss you off.

that father did the right thing, i persionally would have shot him multiple times but thats just me child molestors do not deserve to stand trail they deserve a bullet.

I couldnt agree more, the guy got what was coming to him. If put in the same position I would have done the same thing,although I might have had a problem explaining how his balls got in his mouth.

This for me is a difficult question:

a) I am dead-set against the death penalty (not in any way trying to start a debate or argument about that, just laying out my thought process here)
b) I am particularly sensitive to the impact of abuse of children as in my day job I supervise teams of researchers who research claims for serious sexual/physical abuse suffered by children

So my intellectual self finds it impossible to simply say that anyone deserves to die in the context of a state-imposed death penalty, but my gut tells me that if that had happened one of my nephews I most likely would have had the same instant reaction as that father. The result is that I find myself seeing the father's rage and the resulting death of the perpetrator as being justified, while on the other hand if he had not been killed and was rather arrested, tried, and convicted, I still would not say that he deserves to be put to death by the state.

Oh great, I'm never going to get to sleep with this one churning around in my head...

I'm with you on they one, I'm against a state imposed death penalty. But I am absolutely for the ability and the right to protect your family, including deadly force if it's warranted. I certainly feel catching the guy literally in the act would certainly warrant deadly force. I don't think any parent would do otherwise in the same situation, regardless of potential penalty to themselves, and I don't feel like they should be punished for it. But I still don't think the state should be in charge off who lives and who dies.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

...only if he had thrown him on the grill afterwards; there are some things that even a Texan won't eat.
.......yes, I love Texas, just kidding.

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Dammit, you made me spill my beer :rofl2:

He did his community a favor. He should be hoisted upon the shoulders of his local townfolk and paraded through town. I mean that too! No telling the amount of other children were attacked by this monster, nor if he lived how many more would be either. Those that would attack children deserve neither pity nor leniency. They need a rope and a tree.

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Originally Posted by EMC45

He did his community a favor. He should be hoisted upon the shoulders of his local townfolk and paraded through town. I mean that too! No telling the amount of other children were attacked by this monster, nor if he lived how many more would be either. Those that would attack children deserve neither pity nor leniency. They need a rope and a tree.

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Agreed, and you know down here in GA you don't need the whole tree, just a stump out in the woods. The traditional southern punishment for such an act was to nail his "credentials" to the stump and give him a very dull knife when you leave him.

Gotta Love Texas! Although I am rather disappointed there wasn't gunplay involved. Child molesters are indeed walking turds. If I was running the world, they'd get a fair trial, one appeal and then be walked out to the courthouse parking lot and shot. The Dad in question should receive civic recognition and not criminal charges.

I remember a case in the UK where a group of righteous citizenry/self-appointed protectors of the community marched as a group to a man's house, beat down the door and tried to administer community justice.

Such a shame the plaque on the door they so righteously kicked down said "pediatrician".

There's a reason we have courts, judges, and a legal system.

James.

I subscribed to this thread earlier on today and just don't understand how the responses have got steadily more and more extreme with no regard to what actually happened. Consider that it is really quite difficult to kill someone with punches to head unless you continue long after it's necessary. I'm not sure this thread belongs on a shaving forum.

This is another case, sort of like the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman thing (not that I want to reopen THAT whole can of worms!), in which we will never know all of the truth because one of the parties is dead. But if that (dad catching a molester in the act) is indeed what happened, I completely understand what the father did.

Too bad a guy like that was not around when Jerry Sandusky "mentored" his first boy. Talk about a calculating predator. Every time I see him on the news, and read the recaps of another day's sickening testimony, I think up new tortures for him...

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Originally Posted by UKRob

I subscribed to this thread earlier on today and just don't understand how the responses have got steadily more and more extreme with no regard to what actually happened. Consider that it is really quite difficult to kill someone with punches to head unless you continue long after it's necessary. I'm not sure this thread belongs on a shaving forum.

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Maybe we just have a different take on pedophiles here in the US. As to your thoughts on this thread not belonging on a shaving forum, well this is the "Conversation" forum where most topics can be discussed and debated.

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Originally Posted by UKRob

I subscribed to this thread earlier on today and just don't understand how the responses have got steadily more and more extreme with no regard to what actually happened. Consider that it is really quite difficult to kill someone with punches to head unless you continue long after it's necessary. I'm not sure this thread belongs on a shaving forum.

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Do not know if you have any medical backround (I Do),it is very easy to kill an adult with a blow to the head.

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Originally Posted by ReardenSteel

Maybe we just have a different take on pedophiles here in the US. As to your thoughts on this thread not belonging on a shaving forum, well this is the "Conversation" forum where most topics can be discussed and debated.

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My original point was made about taking the law in to your own hands - we all have opinions about what should be dished out to lawbreakers but my belief is that the hanging tree is not the answer. I thought the US had moved on from this 19th century mentality but some of the posts on this thread make me wonder.

A very good friend of mine got into an altercation at a bar, got hit, hit back once knocking the guy out and causing him to fracturing the rear of his skull hitting the ground. Guy nearly died in hospital from swelling, and suffered permenant brain damage.
Was charged with assult and got probation.
Its quite easy to knock out or be knocked out, its usually the fall that kills.

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Originally Posted by UKRob

I thought the US had moved on from this 19th century mentality but some of the posts on this thread make me wonder.

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If I'm not mistaken, hanging as well as firing squad are still considered legal methods of execution in several states.

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Originally Posted by UKRob

My original point was made about taking the law in to your own hands - we all have opinions about what should be dished out to lawbreakers but my belief is that the hanging tree is not the answer. I thought the US had moved on from this 19th century mentality but some of the posts on this thread make me wonder.

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It's one thing to be made aware of a child molester's presence, such as the Sandusky case. I did not see a line to lynch him on the "hanging tree". Our court system has him, as it should.

It's another thing to hear your child scream and find her in the act of being assaulted. What do you think would have happened if that father had not won that fight? Would you be willing to bet the child's life, that the molester would have left either alive?

It was live or die for all three of them. Thank God the young father won.

If any message is sent here by the Grand Jury, it is not that vigilantes are alive in Texas; it is that Child Molesters should reconsider applying their trade in Texas.

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Originally Posted by Theseus

If I'm not mistaken, hanging as well as firing squad are still considered legal methods of execution in several states.

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Hanging I do not think so,Firing squad, yes,Utah.Great read by the way about Gary Gilmore,(shot thru the heart)
One of my best friends was killed by a single blow to the head,evulsed his vertibral artery,he was dead before he hit the ground.

I have a little boy, almost two years old, and my wife and I are in the planning stages of his sibling-hopefully a little girl. As a parent now, all I can say is if my children are EVER in that situation and I catch the perpetrator in the act, there is no telling the lengths of midevil I will go to exact my revenge on that lowlife POS-lawyers and courts be damned.