Thread: Whats your opinion on automatic weapons?

I just did a Google search, they were both US Gov't type websites.
The 2007 figure was in the bowels of google

Originally Posted by Wullie

ALMOST only counts with respect to horse shoes, hand grenades, high explosives, and nuclear devices.

Take the suicides out of your gun death number and see what happens.

I am having difficulty substantiating your numbers. Would you post where you found them?

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

I just did a Google search, they were both US Gov't type websites.
The 2007 figure was in the bowels of google

Post the link.

Read this if you want to.
GUN CONTROL FACT-SHEET (2004) - Gun Owners Of America

Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review

That's the document the data came from, the page shows a couple of thousand fewer than the figure above for an earlier year. the number grows year on year with the population.

I read the document you posted, it does have a lot of inaccuracies, along with a lot of truths. It IS true that if you have a gun you are less likely to become the victim of successful crime, but you are also more likely to die in a criminal attempt. There are lots of reasons to allow gun carriage, and lots to deny it. I think that following my life here in the UK, I am a little fearful of moving to the USA with my fiance. My primary reason for this is that people are allowed to carry firearms, and I don't know when I will be able to defend myself. Here if somebody tried to mug me I would most definitely ensure that didn't happen. How do I know if the person has a gun or not when I am in the states?

According to this website, US and UK murder – rate and weapon | Flesh is Grass , the USA has ~ a 5x greater murder rate. A huge part of me wonders if this is because of how vast the country is, or because of gun laws. I am a sensible guy, intelligent, so I am not one to think in a one dimensional manner. I understand the varying influences on a countries crime statistics. I don't know what it is like to own a gun, so I don't know the attachment you can have to it. I do know what these figures tell me, and I can only see a few variables.

I know that there are people here in the UK that own guns, both legally and illegally. There aren't many gun related deaths, in fact if there is one it makes national news. I like to think that by restricting gun ownership, that goes a long way to protecting me. My fate is effectively in my hands, unless someone pulls a gun on me then I'm screwed.

Originally Posted by Wullie

Post the link.

Read this if you want to.
GUN CONTROL FACT-SHEET (2004) - Gun Owners Of America

No offence here either, same attitude as carl, debate is debate ... and I do love a good debate

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

No offence here either, same attitude as carl, debate is debate ... and I do love a good debate

Aahahah good!

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review

That's the document the data came from, the page shows a couple of thousand fewer than the figure above for an earlier year. the number grows year on year with the population.

I read the document you posted, it does have a lot of inaccuracies, along with a lot of truths. It IS true that if you have a gun you are less likely to become the victim of successful crime, but you are also more likely to die in a criminal attempt. There are lots of reasons to allow gun carriage, and lots to deny it. I think that following my life here in the UK, I am a little fearful of moving to the USA with my fiance. My primary reason for this is that people are allowed to carry firearms, and I don't know when I will be able to defend myself. Here if somebody tried to mug me I would most definitely ensure that didn't happen. How do I know if the person has a gun or not when I am in the states?

According to this website, US and UK murder – rate and weapon | Flesh is Grass , the USA has ~ a 5x greater murder rate. A huge part of me wonders if this is because of how vast the country is, or because of gun laws. I am a sensible guy, intelligent, so I am not one to think in a one dimensional manner. I understand the varying influences on a countries crime statistics. I don't know what it is like to own a gun, so I don't know the attachment you can have to it. I do know what these figures tell me, and I can only see a few variables.

I know that there are people here in the UK that own guns, both legally and illegally. There aren't many gun related deaths, in fact if there is one it makes national news. I like to think that by restricting gun ownership, that goes a long way to protecting me. My fate is effectively in my hands, unless someone pulls a gun on me then I'm screwed.

Thank you for the link. AS that data is over 10 years old I have no idea whether the numbers are up or down. I did see this after reading a bit further into the article.

In this chapter, we consider what is known about the extent and nature of defensive gun use (DGU). Over the past decade, researchers have attempted to measure the prevalence of defensive gun use in the population. This measurement problem has proved to be quite complex, with some estimates suggesting just over 100,000 defensive gun uses per year and others suggesting 2.5 million or more defensive gun uses per yea

I've been to the UK. I enjoyed every second of it. However, I was informed one evening in Dublin, that I was going the "wrong" direction. I was informed that if I continued my journey in the direction I was headed that I would more than likely get robbed and beaten. I took the advice and changed my course. I'm not stupid enough to think that EVERYTHING is rosy anywhere.

In my travels, I've been robbed and beaten. There were also other attempts that were unsuccessful. I've stated elsewhere in this forum that I no longer carry a pistol. Reason being it that along with the hodgepodge of businesses that can legally negate the law and make you a criminal for entering their business armed, carrying a pistol is a pain in the butt. That being said, I am convinced that if I had not been carrying at the time the unsuccessful attempts on my person were made, that I would have successfully robbed, and or stabbed and beaten, or worse. All of my incidents took place long before cell phones were invented and it was pretty much me or "them". I'm here able to relate this and unless they have since met up with somebody less tolerant than I am, they can relate their side of the story about trying out the wrong guy.

I admire your confidence in your abilities. I do not go to places that I think there is a possibility of problems. In a past lifestyle, I had no choice a lot of the times. Just remember, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.

You can throw all the documents on the planet supporting your view at me. They will not change my convictions. I would ask that before you confer judgement on me or anyone else with my views, that you walk a few miles in our shoes. Also, bear in mind that at the moment, our firearms are still legal.

I have also not read anywhere (and hope I didn't miss it if it was written) that anyone from the US ranting about the fact that the UK or anywhere else have such restrictive firearms laws and they need to be changed.

I will continue to be a "bitter clinger" to quote the words of the person currently sitting in the white house.

It is interesting how we are influenced by media, movies and politicians. Many more people are kill every year by drunk drivers and no one calls for banning cars or alcohol. In fact, we put even faster cars in the hands of untrained children drivers and call to legalize more intoxicants. So unskilled driving, rich kid singers can endanger more lives with their 4 wheeled rocket ships at over 100 miles per hour and get off with a speeding ticket. Why is there no uproar? Studies have shown 95% of all crime is alcohol related, ask any cop it is probably higher. Ban alcohol… nope, we tried that once.

Full auto weapons are not the danger movies would have you believe. After the first round, the rest will go over the target unless the shooter is exceptionally well trained. That someone with a fully automatic weapon could mow down hundreds of people is pure movie fiction.

Recently a few years ago here in Southern California we had a major wildfire. Our neighborhood was evacuated. My neighbor and I were the only ones that remained. The fire did burn to the bottom of the hill that backs up to our property. In 4 days we did not see a police car or officer. We did see people that did not live in our neighborhood driving trucks and vans cruising the streets, having somehow breaching the police roadblocks a mile away. They left quickly, perhaps the AK on a 3 point sling may have had something to do with it. None of our neighbor’s homes were broken into during the event.

Having investigated hundreds of homicides in one of America’s most violent cities, I never investigated a death caused by a fully automatic weapon… all… all were alcohol related though. Yea, banning guns will fix the problem.

After reading all of the posts a few stood out from the Normal Pro Gun -vs- Anti Gun rhetoric a few I did not single out were from a very very very few people who responded that have real street life experience...
We live in a country where the PC crowd is so vocal that I am no longer allowed to teach "Rape Defense" classes for women I have to teach "Street Defense" instead and I have to accept men in the class unless I hold it at a Womens only gym.. BTW I live in very rural Idaho, we vote very right wing, and most homes have a gun here, basically it is not a very PC area... Yet this is still true

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

Oh I'm not going anywhere, you don't get rid of me that easily, our friend said he was out of here .
I don't need weapons, if a guy came near me with a weapon I'd take it from him and shove it up his ass.

At 26 I was also invincible and at 53 I realized I was pretty lucky, I hope that you are not truely naive enough to think that a predator will ever give you a fair fighting chance..




These posts also stood out as they get more to the core problems

Originally Posted by donv

I've been staying away from this thread. But, what the heck, I'll give it a go. I am a gun owner. I am responsible and have never needed to use a gun to defend myself, and hope I never have to. I represent many, many people. There are enough laws restricting gun ownership and type and number of rounds/clip capacity. You will never get all the guns out of America, cant be done, just too many. AND, it wouldn't flippin' matter, because if someone is going to commit a crime, I really don't think that using a banned weapon will bother or hinder them. I live in the Socialist People's Republic of Kalifornia. The laws here are crazy, most are knee jerk reactions to incidents such as the crime in Colorado. That being said, what you will NEVER ban or control, is the actions of a determined person with a screwed up brain.

If he wanted to rack up a better death toll, he would have left the guns at home, taken two, one gallon plastic anti-freeze jugs of gas, block the fire exit from outside, buy ticket, spill gas, flick Zippo, done.

I feel this guy wasn't too concerned about number of dead, he just wanted to put on a show. As soon as I'm made Supreme Ruler of Earth, I'll address problems like this, but for now, I'll say a prayer for those who's lives have been taken, and those who's lives have been forever changed.

The killer is a rare find, as normally these things end with the death of the killer. That, and his station in life, he's no dummy, just got a bad brain. I say study him as much as possible, then, just put one through his head and bury him and move on.

Sorry if I upset anyone, PC is not my strong point. G'nite all, donv

Originally Posted by Mephisto

You have to agree that amongst modern democratic societies the US does poorly in some areas like homicide rates. However, two years ago, a teenager killed his girlfriend, her friend, the mother of the girlfriend and the grandfather. This happened in a small town. I lived about a half mile from where the gruesome scene occurred.

The point is the kid did not use a gun. It was a mass murder or serial killing. The Colorado incident is a similar occurrence. It was a rampage and a mass murder. This time the killer did use guns. When it comes to gun violence we tend to look at the incidents like Columbine, Va Tech and Aurora to cite reasons for gun control.

Aren't they just isolated incidents? They are stunning and shocking to be sure because they strike at us to the very core. Don't they represent a small portion of gun violence in the US? http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/welcome.htm

If we are going to cite the need for gun control let's not confuse the reasons behind it. Mass murders or spree killings are endemic of something else gone wrong in US society. Not guns. I am not saying we should not have gun control but please look at the real reasons so appropriate measures can take place.

Originally Posted by Johnus

I'm more concerned about the trend in the United States where because of issues of "privacy" and "fear of litigation" that people or organizations don't take action before something like this happens. I haven't read enough about this person yet but look at the past mass shootings. These guys just didn't snaps and say 'I going to... ' in almost all cases there has been a long history of them being troubled. Look at the Army Psychiatrist that shoot his fellow solders here in on base in the US. His commanding officers were afraid of taking action because it wasn't " politically correct". the same with the last mass college shooting. The college knew he had really problems but did nothing! Somethings gone wrong with our legal and mental health systems!

Originally Posted by BobH

Stayed out of this one, till now, but read the whole thread. Seems most of the rhetoric on both sides of the gun issue has died down a bit. When an incident like this takes place the immediate reaction is to focus on the gun issue both pro and con. That is only a part of the issue, the bigger part is how a person winds up in that state of mind to do such a thing. There are deeper societal issues as the root cause that need to be focused on too. These are difficult to access and come to grips with and even more difficult to correct.

I live in a country that has fairly strict gun control laws and yet we still have still have similar incidents. When this happens the very first thing that happens is to call for more gun control and not question what causes the perpetrators to think that this kind of behaviour is in anyway, shape or form tolerable. The simple answer here has been even more gun control and not much in the way of looking for at root causes. Politicians seem to like simple answers and have conveniently obliged with more, not so effective, gun control. Sort of a pacifier/soother for the general public who for the most part are urbanized and have little if any dealings with or knowledge of guns. Long winded way of saying there are much larger and more important causes at work than solely guns.

Bob

Think this through for just 1 minute..

The world has advanced in science quite a bit, let's just imagine a new jump in Nano tech and we have a new Nanobot that when released will eliminate every gun in the world by making them inoperative.. So overnight there are no "Guns" in the sense of the word...

Would this be a good thing???


Now put the weapons only in the hands of each Government,, (basically Soldiers and Cops) how would you feel now ??? We all trust our governments and politicians with our lives ... Right ???


Edit: To answer the OP

Full auto = Waste of rounds, IMO please dont take my opinion though look up the actual tests, or just ask yourself why they invented "Burst" settings..

Semi auto = Works just fine, as to whether you need more than 6 shots, just ask any LEO why they were switched from Revolver to Semi,, It makes no sense really, until the Deptments realized that more and more confrontations involved multiple assailants...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now put the weapons only in the hands of each Government,, (basically Soldiers and Cops) how would you feel now ??? We all trust our governments and politicians with our lives ... Right ???

I've lived under Milosevic.. Hence my arguments with citizens being armed in order to combat tyranny.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Snip...


Now put the weapons only in the hands of each Government,, (basically Soldiers and Cops) how would you feel now ??? We all trust our governments and politicians with our lives ... Right ???

That is basically what we, and a lot more nations out there have done for years and years..
For some of those, that has proven to be a disaster.
For others, it has been the most natural thing in the world, and seems to work fine, as it has since world war II basically.
Although our cops aren't actually carrying either

To answer your quoted question, yes, as a matter of fact I do trust my government, our armed forces and our allies.