Thread: U.S. Military - heartbreaking losses

Personally, and this is just my civilian opinion, I think a lot has to do with politics.
first, people are rotated on tougher schedules than they used to have, or so I was told by military people here.
but more importantly: I think that a significant percentage of the problems is caused by the fact that some of the conflicts are outright political.

With WW2, there was a clear understanding with every single soldier that they were fighting for their country. And either they'd win, or they'd lose. Losing meant more misery for their loved ones. Winning meant going home. And there was a massive backing by the populace. WW2 vets are still considered heroes.

With political conflict, there is no backing from the population, and the soldiers themselves start to mentally question whether the misery they see on a daily basis is serving any 'good purpose' or not. If you see death and misery on a daily basis, and you realize that you are having part of it, and it is not serving any good other than furthering some political plays, and you have no homefront backing... it will be hard to stay motivated and mentally fit.

Just my 2cts. I have no experience with the military life so I could be completely wrong here.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Personally, and this is just my civilian opinion, I think a lot has to do with politics.
first, people are rotated on tougher schedules than they used to have, or so I was told by military people here.
but more importantly: I think that a significant percentage of the problems is caused by the fact that some of the conflicts are outright political.

With WW2, there was a clear understanding with every single soldier that they were fighting for their country. And either they'd win, or they'd lose. Losing meant more misery for their loved ones. Winning meant going home. And there was a massive backing by the populace. WW2 vets are still considered heroes.

With political conflict, there is no backing from the population, and the soldiers themselves start to mentally question whether the misery they see on a daily basis is serving any 'good purpose' or not. If you see death and misery on a daily basis, and you realize that you are having part of it, and it is not serving any good other than furthering some political plays, and you have no homefront backing... it will be hard to stay motivated and mentally fit.

Just my 2cts. I have no experience with the military life so I could be completely wrong here.

Painfully very true with Vietnam vets,read a shocking Statistic last week,are over 200 thousand Homeless Nam vets in our country today

Just an aside here. After my return when I was job searching for sales rep type jobs I kept getting turned down. Talking
to a former Pathfinder team member he asked me if I was showing Army and vietnam service on my app's. I said yes I was.
He told me to stop doing it. I left off any mention of military services filled in years gap with BS and got the job as a sales rep for Kraft Foods in a southern california territory. This was toward the end of 1968.

God's blessing on those that served

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I thought we did that the last election?

It's the same bunch, just running under a different name, working for the same employers and I don't mean the people they're representing on paper.

Realistically, those young men and women who put their lives on the line are just a tool for those running the country. Once they've served their purpose, they can be thrown away. How can you take care of them? Raise income/sales taxes? The working class is already overstretched and don't have much to work with. Tax the big corporations? They'll just buy up PR firms and start a few astroturfs crying "oh no, they'll pick up and take those jobs to China."

I don't see things changing for the vets until there's a real change in administration. Regardless of the propaganda, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2 and Obama are all rowing the same boat.

What we as a country really need to do is keep our Freakin Nose out of 3rd world countrys and just let them kill there own people,OR,If we are going to go to some backward country full of neanderthals such as Iraq,How about we declare war and get it over with in an Hour,we can do that you know,and never have to send any grunts in harms way.

Pixel, you are close on your assessment about the time required to "win' a war. It doesn't take 10 years but to do it in an hour would require using weapons you would not want unleashed. To assume any war can be won without sending in the "grunts" (your words) is naive, I'll briefly explain. No offense.
My first tour in Iraq was the invasion; therefore I speak from experience, and my second was 11/06 - 12/07. The plans going in were designed to win with minimal destruction to infrastructure because once you "win" a war or occupy a country you, in affect, own it. The US learned a very costly lesson at the completion of previous wars as to the cost of nation building or to be more precise, REbuilding. We were also trying to avoid giving the enemy more cause to declare or justify a "holy war" by avoiding unnecessarily damaging or destroying holy or sites of religous significance. Add to those rules to the other Rules of Engagement (ROEs) and trying to avoid killing/wounding non-combabtants and you can see a need to use ground forces; smart bombs, no matter how smart, could never make the distinction.
I don't want to go into all the other crap like why the insurgents were blowing up their own infrastructure as we were trying to restore it, most of which was in such a state of disrepair before the war that it didn't work before we got there. It would take far too long and it is a very opinionated discussion. Not to mention that if you haven't been there it would be difficult to have the discussion with you in the first place bacause you would have no place of reference.
As for the suicide phenomenon, I would like to add my 2 cents. Mind you all, I am not looking for a crying towel, I will simply state facts to make my point. I was diagnosed with PTSD more than 4 years after the completion of my first tour. My wife knew something was different and I thought everyone else must be going through the same thing I was. I thought that everyone who has ever seen combat has to go through a post war adjustment period. Besides, I was an "old man" I was mentally strong and all that PTSD stuff was for those weaklings who couldn't handle blood or it was for the young soldiers who hadn't been in long enough to understand the military and how war is supposed to effect us. I was SURE the nightmares, cold sweats, panic attacks, flash backs, daymares, short temper and all the other A-typical symptoms of PTSD were normal for combat veterans and just part of the package we signed on for when we volunteered. I was also SURE it would pass in time; now almost 10 years after my first engagement the symptoms are still there, I deal with them better but they are still there. ANYWAY...
A huge part of the trouble is or was that the mental health community wasn't ready for us to come home, The military nor civilian mental health professionals were prepared to handle so many cases all at once. I have to speak from the Army side because I was in the Army during my combat tours. The Army established this thing called Army one source, it was overwhelmed in no time.
The VA offered to set me up in a group with Viet Nam veterans. I tried to explain to the counselor that it wouldn't work because our wars aren't the same and therefore we can't help one another. She thought that PTSD and combat vets are all the same. I want to perfectly clear on this point, I have the absolute UTMOST respect for my brothers who fought in Viet Nam, your war was by far more difficult than was mine. My son is a veteran of Afghanistan and he and I can talk a little but our wars are different which means we would be talking apples and oranges, both fruit but still different.
Back in '04 about 6 months after I got home my wife begged me to get help because she was afraid for my physical well-being; I had not slept more than an hour or maybe two a night in nearly 6 months. She was afraid to go out in public with me for fear I might snap, which happened while I was on R&R, luckily she was with me and was able to bring me back to reality. She has had to do this on a few other occassions. I called Army One source to take advantage of the no-cost resource, you know the old saying about getting what you pay for! I used One Source also because it guarentees anonymity, which is important to a soldiers career. The program pays for 3 visits, if further care is needed it is up to the soldier if he is a reservist/guardsman to pay for it. The counselor I was "blessed" with spent 2 of the 3 hours doodling and the 3rd visit she spent trying to teach me how to get to sleep, it was a complete waste of time. I didn't get any real help until I finally sought out help again in '06 just a few months before I returned for my 2nd tour.
Was I ever suicidal? Frequently. Why am I still here? God. I am not going to proselytize, all I am going to say is that it has been the hand of God that has kept me alive all these years. That, the love of a great woman, wonderful children and grandchildren, and a few friends. I found something to live for. It isn't that I have any less stress or less nightmares now, I just deal with them.
Why is the suicide rate so high in the Army? It is the biggest service with the most boots on the ground. I also think there is a good deal to be said for the use of citizen soldiers as opposed to "professional" soldiers. I really hate that phrase because Guard and Reserve soldiers are every bit as professional as their active duty counterparts when they are in uniform. Would more training prior to deployments reduce the suicide rate? I doubt it very seriously. Does anyone know how the military suicide compares to the civilian per capita rate?
At one point in time, early in the wars, there was an article published about how violent video games help desensitize and prepare young people for combat. I wonder of those same mental health experts feel the same way now with the high suicide rate? There are several things video games and movies have that real life combat doesn't, background music, slow motion but most of all a reset button! The one thing I used to stress to young soldiers prior to their first patrol even in training was that in combat there is no reset button and when you die in real life you're just dead, no music, no nothing, just dead! I think that concept is hard for some of them to grip until they experience it for themselves.
Sorry to babble on. It probably didn't make much sense, a lot of free writing/thinking. Anyone who has taken a writing class knows the concept. I did not mean to offend anyone, If I did please accept my deepest apologies.
And once again to my brothers who fought the Viet Nam war, my deepest respect goes out to you as it always has. Your war was without a doubt far more difficult than mine. I think both of us were given orders to fight with one hand tied behind our backs. But that's another topic for another time. Semper Fidelis brothers and WELCOME HOME.
Sorry for the misspellings and poor grammar.

Why not unleash the weapons that are proven to win wars?No offense taken but 291K troops died during WW11,we ended that war in 10mins with two bombs,end of issue.
In Korea we lost 34K men,we went to an undeclared war granted,but we lost 34K wasted lives,because we could not win the game with grunts alone.
In Nam 47K troops died,Same undeclared scenario,We lost that war also,why do we get involved in this B.S with no intent to win? I spent two Phucking yrs there and was spit upon at SFO airport when I came home
The kids getting Killed today?for what? Why?
The above stats also do not reflect the Millions of destroyed american lives do to injurys and mental conditions.
Why get involved in this crap with no intent to Win,I will never understand that.rant over,sorry.

One vet to another, you understand what it's like to fight without being allowed to fight to win. The politicians start it, but theya aren't there to fight it. If they had to do the fighting I think it would be far different.
I don't know what fighting the VC or any of the civilian clothes-wearing enemy was like in Viet Nam but it was hell in Iraq. The ROEs changes over night once the end of "major combat operations'was declared and we went into SASO (Sustainment And Stabilization Operations). Sorry for spelling things out you might understand, I don't know aht new phrases you are familiar with.
As I said, I don't mean any offense. In '03 we had a good handle on everything, in '04 when the first rotations of relief troops began arriving everything started going backwards. Basically, all hell broke loose in Mosul as soon as relief units started conducting ops. A lot of it was their fault because they had to prove themselves, according to themselves! They were the newest weapon system in the Army, they missed the invasion and they were hungry for blood. They did a lot of unnecessary killing.
In a country with tribal laws and customs that are 2000 years old it's not a good thing. For every non-insurgent killed 10 new insurgents were born. By the time we left in Mar '04 Mosul had become the wild west again. Anyway... I digress
Now I'm going to make a statement which will piss off a lot of people, maybe not depending on political beliefs. IF you believe we went int Iraq for thier oil what I am about to say will make perfect sense for not using WMD to make short order of what has proven to be a very expensive war in lives and money. I will never use the word waste because I NEVER consider a serviceman's life wasted. (Do I need to go into the philosophy? I am sure I don't with a fellow veteran and I hope friend.) If we were to use WMD to eredicate the enemy we would not be able to get at the oil field of Tikrit for thousands of years. AND to be honest there are actually good people in Iraq that do not hate Americans. I never believed that all Iraqis were my enemy; if the truth ever does come out, I think the average American will be shocked to discover that the vast majority of the insurgents were not Iraqis.
This conversation has gotten sidetracked from the topic. I would love to sit down with you and the other veterans over some iced tea and cigars for those of you who smoke them to discuss the topic of the current state of affairs of our military. I don't know how you feel but I have always felt that once a person serves he/she forever has a claim to the military and the right to claim the UNited States as his or hers. I foten times get funny looks when I do so but I truly do not care. You should have seen the crazy looks I got from kids on campus when I was attending college back in '09-10, they didn't know what to think when I talked about "MY" country or "MY" flag.
ANyway... babbling again so I'll bug out. Hope I didn't offend, it was not my intent and please accept a very belated WELCOME HOME! It is long overdue and I will not be so obtuse as to try to apologize for the assholes who spit on you and worse. I would love to buy you an iced tea some day but I doubt I will ever get the opportunity unless you plan on coming to Nebraska on business or vacation some day.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Why not unleash the weapons that are proven to win wars?No offense taken but 291K troops died during WW11,we ended that war in 10mins with two bombs,end of issue.
In Korea we lost 34K men,we went to an undeclared war granted,but we lost 34K wasted lives,because we could not win the game with grunts alone.
In Nam 47K troops died,Same undeclared scenario,We lost that war also,why do we get involved in this B.S with no intent to win? I spent two Phucking yrs there and was spit upon at SFO airport when I came home
The kids getting Killed today?for what? Why?
The above stats also do not reflect the Millions of destroyed american lives do to injurys and mental conditions.
Why get involved in this crap with no intent to Win,I will never understand that.rant over,sorry.

There's one big problem with using nuclear weaponry today; namely other nations have nukes. If we were to drop a nuke on Iraq, what's to say that Isreal won't get trigger happy and start launching them. You also have Pakistan and India who have been itching to launch againt each other for years. And with all of the alliances between different nations, one simple nuke could domino into full scale global nuclear war.