Thread: Calling all grammar nazis

So I have been teaching my students direct and reported speech and my boss insists that I teach exactly as per the grammar rules. You know, when changing from direct speech to reported speech present simple tense changes to past simple tense, past simple tense changes to perfect past tense, and perfect present tense changes to perfect past tense.

Well one of the Thai teachers put this sentence on a test.

"I have dinner with my sister." She said

I take that sentence to mean that having dinner with her sister is a regular occurrence. As such the reported version of that sentence should be

She said that she has dinner with her sister.

But is I go by the rules it should be

She said that she had dinner with her sister.

But this would mean that the dinner with her sister was a one off, which is not what the original sentense was getting at.


Of course the rule is valid as can be shown with this sentense.

"Does your mother have her own business?" She asked me.

Change to

She asked me if my mother had her own business.

I understand the 'have' in the above sentense to be more related to the question than to the ownership of a business.

So what is the rule for the previous sentense? "I have dinner with my sister." She said.

If I haven't melted your brain I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

I actually think has makes more sense in both, as the "condition" is ongoing in both, but I am no grammar nazi.

Originally Posted by ndw76

So what is the rule for the previous sentense?

Nice pun there with the sen'tense' But I am not sure you are required to change the tense in reported speech - the hoglahoo rule is that since backshifting would change the meaning of the sentence, "She says that she has dinner with her sister" should be used. If your boss insists on backshifting then I guess you are stuck with quoting her!

However, the grammar nazis on wikipedia say that "the original tense can be used provided that it remains equally valid at the time of the reporting of the statement". If that is true, then the grammar rules allow for your "She has dinner with her sister", and your boss can be happy

Example from http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/reported.htm:

Reported speech - English Grammar
Statements

1) If the introductory sentence starts in the present (Susan says), there is no backshift of tenses in Reported speech.

Example:
Direct speech: Susan: "I work in an office."
Reported speech: Susan says that she works in an office.

2) If the introductory sentence starts in the past (Susan said), there is often backshift of tenses in Reported speech. (see: Note)

Example:
Susan: "I work in an office."
Susan said that she worked in an office.

He said, she said, this is all hearsay anyway

edit: anyway I guess the point is that you probably need to use "She says [not 'she said'] that she has [not 'had'] dinner with her sister" if you don't want to mangle it and still follow the rules of Reported Speech

I agree with hoglahoo: accuracy is the thing here.

What really matters in reporting speech is that the meaning of the speech being reported is accurately conveyed. There are so many exceptions to rules in English that I truly pity anyone who is required dogmatically to attempt to stick to them! You have my sympathy Sir!

On a related note, has anyone else been driven batty lately by news organizations using the present tense to describe things that have clearly already happened and are therefore properly located in the past? Makes me cringe every time. But again, we come back to accuracy. If the past is indicated, then use the appropriate case, but if a present action or condition is indicated, then it would be incorrect (IMHO) to alter the case and therefore the meaning of the statement just to satisfy some rule.

Good luck!

I do not know about everyone else, but I cannnot focus on this issue while I am surrounded by so many people that fail to grasp the distinction between "since" and "because"...

Originally Posted by LegalBeagle

I am surrounded by so many people that fail to grasp the distinctin

They fail to grasp the what?

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

They fail to grasp the what?

Kelso says: Burn!

No wonder those foreigners learn perfect English and when they come here you can't understand a word they are a sayin.

reported and direct speech? I never heard those terms before or if I did they are so archaic I've forgotten them. However if thee has a question.

Is u talking about me. I c nothin at all da matter with da way I write! An who u callin a foreigner !!

When I was a grad student in Scotland one of my flatmates was a German economist who would go on hilarious rants about how insane the English was to learn. I have heard that apart from Finnish (which if I understand correctly has grammatical rules that are followed, jut a LOT of them) English tends to be the trickiest European language for adults to learn as a second language because there are so many exceptions.

Or should I say 'since' there are so many exceptions...