Thread: Freedom of choice and the Law

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

But for closing I'd like to once again point out that arguments for any case can be made and no argument on it's own is going to make someone change his mind on this forum.

Alex, I agree with your point - arguments on these very profound issues rarely gain converts either way. Its upto each of us to make up our own minds.

The trouble starts for me, when people, Governments, Religions etc start telling me what my Mind has to be.

I am always surprised when the glaring truth of a particular point of view is not immediately seen by all! A falsehood dressed up as the truth is still a falsehood.

So, Religious/Non-religious, straight/gay - Just dont make any of 'em Compulsory

Originally Posted by Effigy

So, Religious/Non-religious, straight/gay - Just dont make any of 'em Compulsory

That's a pretty good summary.

I haven't read all the posts to this thread, nor have I even read a single post in its entirety, but I add a rant anyway:

Freedom: seems to me if you're not free to make a mistake or do something stupid, then you're not really free, are you? But human behaviour can be, and often is, abhorrent...and laws seems to be needed to curb behaviour and effectively limit choices. Looks like we are, after all..."Human . . . all too human."

God's existence: to paraphrase Anselm, . . . only the fool had said in his heart, There is no God.
It seems to me that the theory of evolution opines as to how species come to be from something, but it does not explain how there is something at all in the first place, rather than nothing. Science cannot explain it, from what standpoint can you devise an experiment? Even Logic can only go so far, and Reason itself, which also embraces contradiction, eventually gives way to faith.
Big Bang, as cosmology is a joke. Think about it, what about before Big Bang? There was Nothing? How can something ever come from Nothing?
The Scholastics used to say "Ex Nihil, nihil fit", and before them Parmenides...

Science, without intuition, is empty formalism.. dull, eh?

Even Logic can only go so far, and Reason itself, which also embraces contradiction, eventually gives way to faith.

No, it gives way to admitting to the certainty that you don't know (yet). As a result of that for some it may give birth to some faith for others it will not.

Science isn't about fun, it's about satisfying curiosity, understanding the world and where you come from and where you're going towards, hence furthering yourself as a scentient being. It's exactly what any deity anyone might believe in would want for his/her creations. Wouldn't you want your own children to grow up, become smarter and advance in the world?

Big Bang, as cosmology is a joke. Think about it, what about before Big Bang? There was Nothing? How can something ever come from Nothing?

If a fly lands in your soup and it can't grasp the concept of the bowl does that mean the bowl doesn't exist? Same thing for concepts such as the big bang. Maybe one day the insight will come to the fly but until then it can only guess or make up assumptions in an attempt to give meaning to different things.

The world doesn't stop at mine or your comprehension, it passed us by millions of years ago and we're just trying to catch up.

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

However, I don't see why allowing gays to get married by the government or believing in evolution or using contraception would endanger my faith.

It wouldn't unless you were: (1) trying to impose it on others; or (2) Lacked the confidence in your faith to permit other points of view to be heard.

Originally Posted by Stigmata

Freedom: seems to me if you're not free to make a mistake or do something stupid, then you're not really free, are you? But human behaviour can be, and often is, abhorrent...and laws seems to be needed to curb behaviour and effectively limit choices. Looks like we are, after all..."Human . . . all too human."

So, governing so as to impose your religious or moral beliefs on others shouldn't happen, unless there's a real danger, should it? And if others are free to do things that are abhorrent to your beliefs, they aren't interfering with your right to believe or practice your religion, are they? It's not a bad principle: government cannot prevent you from practicing your religion and it cannot promote religion (freedom from religion). I wonder where that comes from.

Originally Posted by Stigmata

Freedom: seems to me if you're not free to make a mistake or do something stupid, then you're not really free, are you? But human behaviour can be, and often is, abhorrent...and laws seems to be needed to curb behaviour and effectively limit choices.

Take my recent experience with jury duty:
This guy was free to rob a store and threaten the clerk's life. Nobody made him do it -- he made the choice to do it. He wasn't even smart enough to bring a weapon with him, but used a pair of scissors laying on the counter. He was entitled to legal representation, for free, since he can't afford a lawyer.

As a jury, we felt obligated to lock this 3-time felon (two of which were violent crimes) up for 50 years. He's eligible for parole at age 66 if he behaves.

This loser had the freedom to make the poor choices in life he's made. You can do something stupid, just know there will be an outcome. Choices and actions have consequences.

I came back from the hospital to take a shower and skimmed over all this. I probably missed out on a great deal of it but here's a few key points.

1) the united states government was founded on religious principles.
2) It is most certainly the job of ANY government to impose morality upon the citizens of that government. Otherwise criminals could rape, kill, steal and destroy without restriction. The increasingly futile trick is to impose morals that are both best for the society it governs while being acceptable to as many of the citizens of that society as possible.
3) I have never said I'm not prejudice at all. I am scientifically prejudice. I made that point more than once in my first post but didn't distill it to that small of a sentence. My only request was that anyone taking me to task be sure to fully read and fully understand my post. I'd have to say of all the dissenters, Firestart is the closest to having done that .

4) This topic will never be fully agreed upon by everyone and while I enjoy and encourage full debate on this I would again caution everyone against throwing or even insinuating insults. We're all adults here and should always treat each other with respect. Just look at my example. I still tolerate the ignorance of everyone who doesn't agree with me even though they don't yet realize I'm infallibly right .

Human Beings are not flies. Should the vast majority allow their ideals to be usurped by a very miniscule, but semantically gifted minority?

Just curious as to what everyones idea of progress is.

"Human Beings are not flies. Should the vast majority allow their ideals to be usurped by a very miniscule, but semantically gifted minority?"

I just meant it as an analogy. Or didn't you bother to read the whole post again?

"the vast majority", "semantically gifted minority".. I'm not blessed with the gift of understanding as was obvious from my previous posts, so you'll need to spell it out a bit clearer for me, who's what now?

bad analogy.
everyone knows (or at least I thought so) that you can't legislate morality. We agree, and I'm sincerely sorry if I offended you...I surely didn't mean to.
I wonder what everyone's idea of progress is, especially in a forum of anachronistic straight razor affecionados.