Thread: Assault weopen carnage agian?

I can understand the viewpoints of those that have not been born in the US and lived in the US for as long as number of us have. I'm 60 years old.

In my 60 years, I have witnessed and been a participant in one of WAY too many "police actions"/wars. Watched the government funded destruction of the family and its values that were instilled in young people until the welfare programs were fully instituted. Approximately half of this country is on the "dole" and the other half is busting their ass to try to support it. Our Representative Democracy has been subverted into a democracy and the have nots have figured out how to vote themselves a raise.

The mess we are seeing in this society is a direct result of the nanny state.

One aspect of this discussion that fascinates me is the fact that none of us who have spoken in defense of our constitutionally guaranteed liberties have decried that those countries that limit or deny firearms to their subjects should have to change their laws to match ours. IF you do not desire to own a firearm, I have no problem with that. I'll be the last one to tell you to get one.

What was done yesterday was absolutely an disgusting and tragic act of an unstable young man. Perhaps the truly guilty party of the occurrence was the first one killed. I have seen no mention of a father in anything I've read. Maybe we should blame the mother for creating and fostering a monster. That's a big stretch and I really don't mean that but if we want to point fingers let's point fingers and try to shove blame ANYWHERE other than where it belongs. Isn't that the politically correct thing to do nowadays?

Yesterday's act pales in comparison to what is happening to children in the middle east and Africa. There are NUMEROUS shining examples of governments gone wild and killing their subjects. I have yet to hear any of the bleeding hearts decrying those deplorable situations. What's up with that? Our beloved leader is fighting Al Queda on one front and supporting them on another. The present administration is governing by executive order and the house and the senate are letting him. Like I said this government is broke ( in more ways than one definition of that word).


At this moment, it is still a constitutionally guaranteed right for any American citizen to legally posses a firearm provided they meet the criteria for such ownership.
I would suggest that you take a few minutes and look at the numbers shown at this less than right wing website.
By the numbers: Guns in America - CNN.com

I think that illustrates the will of the people it does NOT illustrate the desire of the left turned media or the present administration.

Edit: laws have nothing to do with this. Morals, ethics, and upbringing have everything to do with it.

You can't idiot proof the world, you can however parent properly and learn to spot the warning signs of mental instability. Beyond that, know when to act on those signs, even when it's your own child.

With so many problems that contribute to the final outcome of yesterday's tragedy both sides get bogged down on only one of the numerous problems. Until both sides can get past the fixation on guns you ain't gonna get anywhere near reducing these incidences. Do you really want to attempt to stop the continuous cycle of grieving over these tragedies or just keep on arguing your pet peeve/solution solely centered on guns? There is so much more going on than that one point.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

With so many problems that contribute to the final outcome of yesterday's tragedy both sides get bogged down on only one of the numerous problems. Until both sides can get past the fixation on guns you ain't gonna get anywhere near reducing these incidences. Do you really want to attempt to stop the continuous cycle of grieving over these tragedies or just keep on arguing your pet peeve/solution solely centered on guns? There is so much more going on than that one point.

Bob

One half mile from where I live two guys went into a restaurant right before closing and murdered three women who worked there for $120.00 that was in the cash register. They were caught because one of the two was so pleased with himself that he bragged to a friend about it. His friend apparently didn't think it was anything to be proud of and turned him in.

A little less than one half mile from where I live two guys went into a convenience store and , though the two clerks were completely cooperative with them, the security camera shows them killing them execution style. They were also caught doing a drive by gang related shooting and the murder weapon was determined to be the same. Unfortunately none of these perpetrators got the death penalty they so richly deserve.

Point being, I carry a gun to protect myself. I would give the guns up if I didn't live in the wild west, figuratively speaking. We aren't all playing with the same deck of cards and you people that may live in a more civilized environment may not understand the pressures of living in or close by 'the hood.'

Are incidents of this kind an acceptable trade off for maintaining this particular civil right.

Originally Posted by Baxxer

I've been reading this thread and both sides have put up some good arguments but I'd like to chime in with my outsider point of view.

I live in a country with strict gun laws and I think it's crazy that automatic weapons and weapons in general are so relatively easy to obtain in the states.

The law here says that you can only get a firearm if you've got a legitimate use for it, so most weapons here are for hunting and competitive target practice.
Collectors have to deactivate their guns.
Even if you fit this criteria, it's still not easy to get a license.

Fully automatic rifles are overkill for hunting and they're not the best suited for target shooting(even though it'd be fun), so they are very rare outside police and military beacause it's only in extreme special circumstances that a civilian can get one.

Not surprisingly we don't have a lot of gun violence here.


The second amendment was written during a very different era, right after the american revolution and I personally fail to see how it's relevant to modern USA.

The argument that criminals will always get guns is a half true one if you ask me.
If you limit the availability of guns and heavily regulate who can have them with strict rules about safekeeping and use, it will get harder for criminals to get them(it's hard to steal a gun from someone who keeps it locked up in a gun-safe) and I sure as hell don't think you should make it easier for them.

It helps to understand that the Declaration of Independence was written by the people and issued to the current government.
The Bill of Rights are rights given to all men by the Creator.
These are not freedoms the government lets us have because they are nice and love us.
The Bill of Rights is a list of things the government is not allowed to touch, but so many people have traded their liberties for security, that now we are enjoying neither.

The first amendment has no teeth without the second amendment.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

One half mile from where I live two guys went into a restaurant right before closing and murdered three women who worked there for $120.00 that was in the cash register. They were caught because one of the two was so pleased with himself that he bragged to a friend about it. His friend apparently didn't think it was anything to be proud of and turned him in.

A little less than one half mile from where I live two guys went into a convenience store and , though the two clerks were completely cooperative with them, the security camera shows them killing them execution style. They were also caught doing a drive by gang related shooting and the murder weapon was determined to be the same. Unfortunately none of these perpetrators got the death penalty they so richly deserve.

Point being, I carry a gun to protect myself. I would give the guns up if I didn't live in the wild west, figuratively speaking. We aren't all playing with the same deck of cards and you people that may live in a more civilized environment may not understand the pressures of living in or close by 'the hood.'

I am not suggesting anything about guns other than there are more issues involved than guns alone. Your examples clearly point that out. I do not want to live in a society where I feel it is necessary for my own safety to be armed while I go out. OTH, if I felt that was necessary I most certainly would be carrying. If you want to go from feeling it is necessary to not feeling it is necessary to be constantly armed you have to look past the issue of guns. The only alternative is keep the status quo and accept the consequences of what is happening now as the price you pay for doing nothing.

Bob

Originally Posted by Jeltz

Are incidents of this kind an acceptable trade off for maintaining this particular civil right.

NOTHING that can be legislated will stop a determined individual from accomplishing whatever he/she/they decide they want to do. The fact is that EVERYTHING that young man did yesterday was illegal.

So now the argument is "let's make it harder" for them to accomplish their chosen task? Why not take away cars from everyone because a few people drive drunk? What's the difference? The last numbers I saw for Texas stated that over 2.700 people have been killed THIS YEAR! I'd say that is a very big problem. That is more than have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, yet I see no outcry about traffic deaths.

If you'll look aside from the current issue, maybe you can understand that our Bill of Rights was written to protect the citizens from an oppressive government the likes of which the colonies had just finished a war to break away from and that you are currently living under the government ( I realize that England's government is not the same as it was then but is a direct result of what it was then) that brought about our Bill of Rights.

Perhaps you like having cameras watching your every move and paying taxes to support such entities. Maybe you don't or maybe you're so accustomed to it that it isn't an issue to you. Doesn't matter to me. I do NOT look forward to that kind of intrusive BS in my life.

I'm not trying to "poke back" nor start a disagreement. The fact is that the US has been going down a different path until fairly recently when SOMEBODY decided we needed to hard turn left.

Personally, I'd rather be responsible for myself.

Originally Posted by Wullie

So now the argument is "let's make it harder" for them to accomplish their chosen task? Why not take away cars from everyone because a few people drive drunk? What's the difference? The last numbers I saw for Texas stated that over 2.700 people have been killed THIS YEAR! I'd say that is a very big problem. That is more than have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, yet I see no outcry about traffic deaths.




I'm not trying to "poke back" nor start a disagreement. The fact is that the US has been going down a different path until fairly recently when SOMEBODY decided we needed to hard turn left.

Wullie - You should know by the amount of likes I give you lol, that I love 99% of the things you say so take this for what it is - a mere difference of opinion.

The part of your statement I highlighted I have a real problem with. I find it flawed logic. Comparing motor vehicles and guns just can't be done. In my opinion. Motor vehicles provide an economic good that pales any kind of economic good the sales of arms provides to society. Motor vehicles provide a utility that serves all Americans. Weapons can't claim that.

An automobile's externalitys... those things that are bad when used incorrectly, are unfortunate side effects. A guns "externalitys" are its purpose - and that is too kill.

A vehicle purpose is not to kill - a guns is. And that's all fine but we get a ton of good out of cars as a society. A guns is questionable.


As for the "SOMEBODY" who decided to turn left... yup! That would be over 50% of Americans.

Just saying...

The only "Assault Weapon" that created any carnage was a sick human.