Thread: Does this make anyone else mad?

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I beg to differ. We may have the richest poor of the entire world. Want to see real poverty? Check out the places where capitalism doesn't exist. The reason we have a welfare program at all is because of the riches created by capitalism. The reason why we have the luxury of food stamps is because of capitalism. The fact that food stamps can bring the average person milk, bread, meat, or eggs is because of capitalism. It is because people could exchange goods, services, and currency that these things exist in any quantity sufficient to sustain us as a people in the first place. The wrong assumption is that we could have even gotten to this level of productivity and resources in the absence of that economic exchange is insane.

The fact that Capitalism got us here, knowing what a warring/greedy/selfish bunch of people we are, should make you wonder how really awesome it is if it supports that lol!!

FYI - food stamps and social programs exist in spite of Capitalism, not because of it. All "systems" have a form of "economic exchange," not just capitalism.

Originally Posted by earcutter

The fact that Capitalism got us here, knowing what a warring/greedy/selfish bunch of people we are, should make you wonder how really awesome it is if it supports that lol!!

FYI - food stamps and social programs exist in spite of Capitalism, not because of it. All "systems" have a form of "economic exchange," not just capitalism.

Sure, you can have a food stamp program outside of capitalism. But you probably won't have much to get with them. The former Soviet Union had their version of it. People were lined up down the block to get into a shop that had one lousy sausage hanging in it. This greed you find so distasteful is simply people trying to better their situation through exchange. That in itself is not problematic but natural and good. When taken to an extreme, it can be dangerous.....like anything. But it is what propels us forward. Its why production was so inefficient and indifferent in the Soviet states. The incentive was removed and people simply stopped producing. It tried to deny human nature. But the move toward communism itself was a symbol of that greed. It was the same thought process (to better themselves through some action) but directed at a false promise. So strong is this utopian fantasy that it continues to seduce people of every generation. Without capitalism and the ability to exchange goods and services, there would never have been any significant developments in production, the production needed to deliver the goods people get from food stamp programs.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Sure, you can have a food stamp program outside of capitalism. But you probably won't have much to get with them. The former Soviet Union had their version of it. People were lined up down the block to get into a shop that had one lousy sausage hanging in it. This greed you find so distasteful is simply people trying to better their situation through exchange. That in itself is not problematic but natural and good. When taken to an extreme, it can be dangerous.....like anything. But it is what propels us forward. Its why production was so inefficient and indifferent in the Soviet states. The incentive was removed and people simply stopped producing. It tried to deny human nature. But the move toward communism itself was a symbol of that greed. It was the same thought process (to better themselves through some action) but directed at a false promise. So strong is this utopian fantasy that it continues to seduce people of every generation. Without capitalism and the ability to exchange goods and services, there would never have been any significant developments in production, the production needed to deliver the goods people get from food stamp programs.

I know what you are saying OCD - really I do. Moreover, I understand full well the communist system and it's drawbacks. Communism however, like Capitalism needed to spread around the world to see it's true worth. It didn't, and hence we'll never know. And that's perfectly cool.

But now that Capitalism has "won," and we need not fear the boogie man that is Red Russia, perhaps it's time to fix the system we have to make it sustainable and somewhat equitable in the long-run.

Don't get me wrong - I love capitalism and all, but it's not all that. The externalitys are HUGE! As in kill the planet huge lol!! Externality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is much work left to do - we need not sing it's praises anymore. Especially seeing the "hangovers" it creates.

Originally Posted by earcutter

But now that Capitalism has "won," and we need not fear the boogie man that is Red Russia, perhaps it's time to fix the system we have to make it sustainable and somewhat equitable in the long-run.

Communism lost round one. Red Russia may have been its first significant casualty. But some people, such as myself, see the fight still in progress. It may not be a fight that involves land or armies, but ideas. Communism could never spread over the entire world as long as there was one place left that it did not exist. Marx and Engles themselves believed that there would need to be a transition period until such time that the memory of life as it used to be was erased. Socialism was step one, Communism the long-term goal. The fight that was lost was the short path, a head to head battle. The one I see today is the long game - a gradual, long-term effort on the part of many to achieve incrementally what could not be won all at once. Its something that has been in progress for quite some time within our society and it has had little to no opposition. So I think its important to keep the record straight about the various political and economic systems. And, more important, that of human nature. Capitalism may not be perfect but that is because we are not perfect as individuals.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Communism lost round one. Red Russia may have been its first significant casualty. But some people, such as myself, see the fight still in progress. It may not be a fight that involves land or armies, but ideas. Communism could never spread over the entire world as long as there was one place left that it did not exist. Marx and Engles themselves believed that there would need to be a transition period until such time that the memory of life as it used to be was erased. Socialism was step one, Communism the long-term goal. The fight that was lost was the short path, a head to head battle. The one I see today is the long game - a gradual, long-term effort on the part of many to achieve incrementally what could not be won all at once. Its something that has been in progress for quite some time within our society and it has had little to no opposition. So I think its important to keep the record straight about the various political and economic systems. And, more important, that of human nature. Capitalism may not be perfect but that is because we are not perfect as individuals.

LOL - you must be a billionaire with a multinational conglomerate of company's to think that way lol!

Originally Posted by earcutter

LOL - you must be a billionaire with a multinational conglomerate of company's to think that way lol!

I should be so lucky!