Ilija, Bill, and thread closings.

[thebigspendur]

I think we should all remember that this forum is supposed to be about Straight Shaving and related things. I really don't recall any problem posts concerning straight shaving. It seems when we get out of our main purpose and element and delve into other subjects and start expounding on our personal opinions that is when we start stepping on other people's toes and putting our feet in our mouths and otherwise getting into trouble.

I think everyone should strongly think about what they say in the off topic forum and consider other members opinions and value others the way we want to be valued ourselves. I think that in this forum in particular their needs to be very vigilant policing by the moderator not to curtail others thoughts and opinions but to protect them. Tolerance is the key word here gentlemen. Just my 2 cents.

[vladsch]

FUD's eloquent and concise opinion for me is a breath of fresh air. I missed the play by play of the Freedom Thread and found Bill Ellis' sudden disappearance a bit strange. Even stranger was the continued posts to his thread by others as if nothing happened. I find it disturbing when prominent member disappears and no one talks about in the open. I guess being born in the former Soviet Union makes me sensitive to such events.

I agree with FUD that under the circumstances Ilija should have resigned as a moderator and failing that should have been removed as one.

In hindsight, this should have been done long before Bill was pushed beyond his limit to tollerate opinions which he was not able to filter out with the "ignore" feature. Having Ilija remain as a moderator only confirms that Bill's departure was justified and the only recourse available to him.

At least Bill was congruent and made his departure public unlike most before him who quietly voted with their feet.

Yes, we can hope to put this behind us and move on as if it never happened but deep down there is a nagging feeling that something has changed and not in a good way.

[mparker762]

I have stayed studiously clear of those threads, I really don't want their contents coloring my opinion of members here who might be involved.

You're right that something's changed -- a lot of the collegiality has gone, and there's a wariness that seems to be pretty pervasive. The argument is still there, it's just papered over and everybody's tiptoeing around it. There's still a lot of touchiness between the surviving participants, and this seems to be spreading the ill will. I've gotten some pretty snippy PM's from members over some pretty innocuous-seeming comments which have made me wary and cautious as well.

On a positive note, it's all a tempest in a teapot. This is a pretty common experience for forums and mailing lists. This one was even pretty tame as such things go - the BMW /5 forum squabble back in '98 was much worse, as was the INTP mailing list tussle back in '95 - now *that* was a fight :-).

[celticstone]

not to sound rude but i think that topics of religion, government, or sexual prefernce or any other topics of that nature maybe should be considered taboo and possibly banned in the off topic area. you cannot discuss any of these in todays workforce, and in doing so usually results in immediate dismissal if someone is offended. also, dicussing these topics usually results in "cliques" with everyone on both sides having a pissing contest. its sad to see both bill and joe leave, and maybe if we stick to not discussing these things as guest on Lynn's website, it will not happen again. hell, if anyone wants to debate with me on personal topics, I will give you my phone number and address and we can sit down personally and discuss it.

[azjoe]

I'm as disappointed as anyone that Bill and Joe have left the group. I considered both of them to be my friend and I miss them. But I think if you're going to pick at people to punish them for what happened, you should attack everyone involved as we all rightly have to share part of the responsibility.... Bill and Joe included. That adds up to probably a dozen or so people in case you don't know. We all made choices to do/not do or say something that may have affected the end result had we taken a different tact.

Many of you continue to speak of those choices as though they were some malicious plot or incredibly stupid decision. I suspect everyone involved thought they were doing the right thing at the moment, though.

Regardless, the following is indisputable:

• Many people stopped reading the thread shortly after it began because it was topically offensive to many from the start.
• Some people said some very mean spirited things to/about one another.
• Some people didn't didn't reign themselves in when asked to by both moderators and fellow members.
• Some people let their emotions get way out of control... and eventually the cuss words started to fly.
• Hence, a moderator (essentially uninvolved in the discussion) closed the 2nd Amendment Thread.

If you want to criticize me for not agreeing to allow members to put mods/admins on their ignore list, so be it. I accept your criticism and acknowledge that you think that is a bad decision... and so we disagree. If you want to disrespect me for that, that's certainly your right to do so... every decision I make will not be to everyone's liking... that's just the way it is and I have to live with that or not be a Moderator. If you think I should be fired as a Moderator for that then talk to the guy that makes that decision (ie, Lynn). But continuing to beat the drum over it probably isn't going to make you feel any better, or me any worse... but it is demotivating to everyone else who isn't involved and/or disagrees with you.

I personally see no benefit to dwelling on the woulda/coulda/shoulda of the past because I can't change what's already happened... all I can do is try to do better in the future. If folks want spend their time criticizing what happened, I guess that's up to them. However, I ask that they please please take the time to give proper weight to all the opinions and posts from the members who are voicing that they want the bickering to stop... that they are tired of hearing about it... that discussions of that type had no place on this site in the first place... that they are appalled that people would say those things to one another in the first place... that people were acting arrogant and/or childish and got what they deserved... etc. etc.

[Lynn]

Go Bucks!!!!!!!

Lynn

[rtaylor61]

Go Bucks!!!!!!!

Lynn

Uh, Go Gators!

RT

[Wildtim]

Uh, Go Gators!

RT

I predict bucks by twenty

[rtaylor61]

I predict bucks by twenty

At the moment, it is the GATORS by 20!

RT

[mparker762]

Gonna make for some interesting BCS voting. If it keeps up Boise State will be the only undefeated team left standing, and with an impressive bowl performance to provide the punctuation mark.