Thread: Forging Perceived Value

Originally Posted by thehattr

I've seen people on the Internet that sell knives and emphasize they use a coal forge like it's the best way. I feel marketing wise when people think traditional items like knives and razors they may favor ones that were made "traditionally".

Knives are far bigger and much more matured market. It may be just a matter of numbers and the niche for coal forged razors is very small at this time. Given your observations denying its potential would be silly.

In a blind test, nobody could yell the difference. The steel doesn't care.

If they know how to use a coal fire forge then no difference.
If they don't coke the coal first then you get sulfur and other crap in the steel and the blade sucks.
Personally, I find a propane forge produces a better blade due to consistent fire control - or maybe I just suck with using coal.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Sorry Bruno, but in this instance you are wrong. Unlike the other two fuels, your charcoal is sustainable, and therefore is a better option! This is an untapped marketing tool available to you!

You know, my charcoal says on th ebags that it comes from CO2 neutral sustainable forest management. Might be a good marketing slogan for the tofu crowd

Originally Posted by Bruno

You know, my charcoal says on th ebags that it comes from CO2 neutral sustainable forest management. Might be a good marketing slogan for the tofu crowd

...and your steel is made from all-natural ores without synthetic additives or preservatives on top of being highly recyclable and beneficial to the environment, preventing the dumping of potentially thousands of cart's during its lifetime.

ps - I hate tofu, but I do like me some edemame.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Coal is important for knife forging because it allows to adjust the carbon content of steel. Not sure if that matter for razors at all.

We have a on-the-one-hand versus the other disparity. Bruno has opined that forging causes carbon loss and Mainaman allows that the smith can adjust the carbon content. Both are right and Mainaman tends toward being a little more right in this case. All that's needed is more time and experience.

A knowledgable smith can adjust the atmosphere of most any type of fire (independent of fuel source). When I'm welding patterned stuff, I want a reducing atmosphere (carbon rich - generally carbon monoxide). This also holds true when I'm smelting steel at home. The carbon gradient tends to mean that iron will absorb more carbon than is burned away and steel will form. If I have steel that has too much carbon, an oxidizing fire (oxygen rich) will burn away surface carbon from the steel. A carbon neutral atmosphere suggests no carbon loss or gain.

From my experience with coal (worked these fires for about seven years) and charcoal, the forge can exhibit all three types of atmosphere that are dependent on the distance of the heat from the tuyere (the source of oxygen). A knowledgeable smith could hold the material in the right part of the fire to accomplish any of the above goals. I would say that a propane forge is a more even environment but there will be more oxygen nearer the port where the air/gas mix enters the forge and a knowledgeable smith can control the air gas temperature mix to produce the atmosphere they want by adjusting the fuel burn.

Scott is right...the steel don't care what kind of heat it is.

Jimmy's right about the romance. There was an intense argument about forging vs stock removal about 30 plus years ago. The truth of that disagreement is that all things become equal in the heat treatment and there is essentially no difference in the final product if the HT is good. Plus, all steel is forged from the ladle to general barstock sizes. Anything a hand-smith does is minor compared to all that work done beforehand and won't likely influence performance to any great degree if their shop practices are acceptable (nothing is fool-proof). In the end, the forger still has to grind away some steel and we all become stock removal types to some degree or other.

As always, there are variables that can change any of the above.

I just have to step in here as a moderator ............ Please note the unwritten SRP rule when replying to this ...... or any thread ......



Thank you for your understanding ...........

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I just have to step in here as a moderator ............ Please note the unwritten SRP rule when replying to this ...... or any thread ......



Thank you for your understanding ...........

Jimmy, I considered that doctrine far longer than it took to write my response. The hardest part was deciding if I should go to hospital and claim chest pain or surrender to the witness protection program.

Thanks to the posters for a technically enlightening thread. That said, as an end user all I personally care about is that the end product has the correct geometry, an excellent grind and is properly heat treated so as to be eminently usable. How it winds up that way I'll leave for the expert makers to worry about and take all claims of which method of production is superior with a grain of salt.

OTH this thread has given me a better appreciation of the effort and skill that goes into making a blade.

Bob

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Jimmy, I considered that doctrine far longer than it took to write my response. The hardest part was deciding if I should go to hospital and claim chest pain or surrender to the witness protection program.

But Mike, you at least said he was right but went on to explain how others also were right.

I said he was wrong.

What the heck should I do?