Thread: How's this sound?

MAKING A STRAIGHT RAZOR BLADE

1"x6"x1/4" 1080 steel
1-Heat till magnet will not stick to steel
2-Hammer shape blade
3-Reheat using magnet test-hold temp for 1/2 hour?
4-quench in oil
5-Temper in oven at 450 degrees for 3 hours
6-Grind to shape without over heating blade

Does this sound good or am I going to end up just wasteing ALOT of time?

Willy,

You're close but not quite there. The steel is a good choice. Heating to just non-magnetic is too cool for forging. You'll need to get up into the red-orange range before the steel starts to move like it should. Forging at a lower temperature is just asking for trouble.

For a simple carbon steel like 1080, you don't need a long 30 minute soak time. Maybe a minute or two at non-magnetic is fine. Long soaks are for more complex steels like O1.

I would temper at about 400 F. Going to 450 might leave the blade a little soft for a razor.

Good luck!

Josh

Thanks Josh!
One more question while I got your ear.
Is shapeing the blade by hammer better than just grinding to shape ? or doesn't it matter?

Originally Posted by willy

Is shapeing the blade by hammer better than just grinding to shape ? or doesn't it matter?

Guys have done serious research here and the answer is: makes absolutely no difference in terms of the final product.

I agree with Philadelph. Forging doesn't impart any magic qualities, and it has the potential to degrade the steel when you're learning.

However, I find forged blades to be way cooler, and I forge almost all of mine for that reason. There's just something about shaping something with fire and a hammer... It can be a time-saver as you get better, too. Grinding away steel is slower than pushing it around at 2000 F.

Josh

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

However, I find forged blades to be way cooler, and I forge almost all of mine for that reason. There's just something about shaping something with fire and a hammer...

That being said- unless you leave rough hammering in the steel when all is said and done, one should not be able to tell the difference aesthetically between a forged blade and other... Forging is fun though, yes!

I don't know if it makes any difference in the finished product or not. If you say it doesn't then I will accept that but I would rather have a forged blade then one made with stock removal only. There is a mystique to a blade hammer forged on an anvil. For me anyway. I would never try to make razors. I might have gotten into it if I was younger but ....... I'm not. If I ever had I would have wanted to do it over a forge with the hammer forming the blade. Just something about it really turns me on.

Ok, this should probably be the last NEEDED post in this thread. Here is an article to read. A defining article:

The lowdown on forging

Here is one response to a question about forging vs. stock removal that references the above article:

"As far as empirical evidence, Kevin Cashen , and many others,have thousands of micrographs of the structures in blades made both ways. The article you read was a simplified (as much as Kevin is capable of simplifying anything) explanation of his findings and observations. Metallurgists worldwide study steel in manufacturing and produce volumes of empirical evidence.

Has anyone sat down and done an exhaustive research study on the merits and detractions of the two methods ??? - I doubt it - as there would be no need to prove what is already provable with current evidence. It would be like going to the head of research at Dow Corning and asking for $1,000,000 to fund an empirical study to prove that water boils at 212F SP.

The benefits and drawbacks of the two techniques are not in the final blades (which in most cases will be identical) but in the formation. Forging has many benefits to the smith in his ability to control thickness and shape as desired with the minimum amount of steel. The stock removal folks need less equipment. There are ,of course, more pros and cons.

Finally, It is in understanding the metallurgy and the physical process involved in a blade and its construction that the decision on which way the blade is made should be determined.
In a drop point hunter, or a Bowie, there is no difference on way or the other.
In a pattern welded short sword with fullers, or an orikaeshi san mai kitae katana, there is only one practical choice - forging.
For a folder blade, or fillet knife, stock removal is advantageous."

Here is one more answer written by the author of the above article:

"the article is mine but the information is not since it is all based upon well established knowledge and principles used everyday in the steel industry. So much so that it can safely be called fact instead of theory, otherwise I would have avoided using it. You see too many bladesmiths that also write have no hesitation in using speculation or assumptions as if they were fact, partially because they know few will ever question them on it due to a widespread and strong desire to want to believe.

Don't let the impatience to your question discourage you too much, instead I would offer this insight into it, you see the "forging Vs. stock removal" thread is perhaps THE most often debated and clichéd argument on virtually any blade making forum. It often results in hard feelings due to threatening the sacred cows of many people, and thus it has become the equivalent of a political discussion, and can understandably put may people immediately on the defensive, or bring out the impatience of folks who are just plain weary of it.

I wrote the article in part to help alleviate this situation by giving a source, based upon fact, to which folks could refer instead of getting mired in that same old debate. I invite your questioning; I think it is a good thing to ask for solid source data, I am disappointed as to how seldom I ever see it done to the claims of forging superiority, however. I give much more in the way of explanation of cause and effect and reference to fact than virtually any claim I have ever seen on the other side. From my perspective the article is not theory but is based upon the accepted facts, while the speculation and claims surrounding the forged blade are perhaps theoretical at best. My challenge to the other side is to refute any of these facts while making their proclamations about the forged blade, if they do I am certain the entire steel industry, and the whole field of metallurgy will be VERY interested.

The saddest examples of attempts to support claims are the so called "tests" that bladesmiths have done. It is always in the form of highly subjective and inaccurately vague displays of performance that could be easily accountable to dozens of influences other than forging, with the daunting task of even attempting to trace if down to one due to the countless variables involved. Then there are the outright smoke and mirrors of misdirecting the entire question and subject into areas of testing that have nothing to do with a knife but will impress those not familiar with the underlying principles involved.

At the bottom of the article I list just a few of my sources:

Fundamentals of Physical Metallurgy by J. D. Verhoeven
The Inhomogeneity of Plastic Deformation (Papers presented at ASM Seminar October 16 and 17, 1971) ASM
Introduction to Physical Metallurgy by S. Avner
Metallurgy by B. J. Moniz
Physical Metallurgy by B. Chalmers
Plasticity of Metals by M. Kurrein

Now compare that to the sources of data that the folks who say forging can produce a superior knife:
…ummm… well… ummm…

Also I have added my own observations from 20+ years of professional bladesmithing, of which for the last decade has included not vague or general tests but very specific and standardized tests common in metallurgy and industry, in conjunction with a good percentage of my life in front of metallographs dissecting the steel micron by micron."

Jimmy I understand the shrouded mystique that you are imagining, but I guarantee you I could send you two blades- one forged and one made by stock removal and without knowing which is which, make the stock removal blade the one you would prefer. That being said, I will NOT be sending you those two blades! lol

Hey guys!
thanks for all the replies and the info.
A guy can learn alot around here
Thanks again

According to the Heat Treater's Guide, you should start forging 1080 at approx. 2150 degrees F, and never below 1500 F.

Steel becomes non-magnetic at 1414 F (the Currie Point) on heating (it regains it at a much lower temp on cooling), so non-magnetic is much to low for forging 1080.

Kevin Cashen put out a very informative guide to Heat Treating 1084. 1084 is so similar to 1080 that you can use the same instructions. If you don't know Kevin, he really knows his stuff, so I heartily recommend downloading and following his instructions. (FYI, you may note that there are a bunch of strangely placed question marks in Kevin's guide. They are there because someone's software couldn't handle the degree symbols that should actually go there.)