Thread: Crucible steel ( "+ULFBERH+T")

I have always wondered if small scale crucible steel was possible.
Clearly it is and near possible for the mortal.

This story about viking swords traces a path from the mid east to
Viking land... There is clearly a subtle secret at that time and if
it was common knowledge history would have changed especially
in Japan.

NOVA | Secrets of the Viking Sword

The viedo is unavailable at the moment.
What was the subtle secret you are talking about?
Knowledge itself is only one ingredient. Without the availability of the required materials, nothing would change.
It's not good knowing how to make wootz if you don't have the proper ore for making wootz.

Btw, better swords would not have made much of an impact in Japan.
Firstly, swords were never the number one battlefield weapon. Bows and spears were. Swords were used, but not as mass fighting weapons. On a battlefield, keeping distance was important. Not surprisingly, when someone with a sword fights someone with a spear or halberd, the one with the sword usually loses.

You should also not underestimate the Japanese in their adherence to tradition. Things are done the way they are done because if it was good enough for your great grandfather, it is good enough for you. A guy who lives in Japan once explained it like this: In the west, we understand that good people sometimes do bad things (for example taking a company pen back home, or keeping the change if someone overchanged you). In Japan, it is normal for intelligent people to do stupid things (like carry sand in bags and buckets instead of using a wheelbarrow).

Anyway since I cannot see the video: what was the secret?

Making steel is not magic. But back in the time when "The King who could draw the sword from the stone" ruled, perhaps it was not a feat of the arm, but of the mind. Magic gives more excitement to life for some, than knowledge.

If you're speaking of the Frankish steel process, more than likely it was one observant fellow who connected the dots and was able to replicate it. As happened more often than not, the fellow who knew something died with it still inside his head. This explains many gaps in historical traditions where processes were lost then rediscovered. Warlords were generally very careful about keeping alive captives with metal skills. That also explains why some processes rapidly expanded following expeditionary adventures. Frankish steels from the monastery mentioned were exceptionally clean. That was something not very common from smelters in that part of the world, nor was crucible processing.

Bruno's suggestion that the ore makes a big difference is also true. Back then, however far back you want to go, "those rocks" make really good steel and "these rocks" do not, was about the extent of metallurgical knowledge. It's the reason wootz faded into history. Swedish iron has always been of high quality and was just across the water from the home of the Franks.

The one gross error in that show was the comment about northern Europe being denuded of trees for the iron making industry. It was not. Napoleon's gunpowder required far more charcoal than iron making. J. E. Rehder, of The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity, did the math. A single smelter requires only 26 acres of renewable timber to make iron year round. Producers of like shows seem to ask the right people about some things and get good answers only to ignore them for idiotic fables because they are much more entertaining than a fact.

Even so, Ric is a good smith and friend of mine and everyone should watch the episode if they get the chance.

Originally Posted by Bruno

The viedo is unavailable at the moment.
What was the subtle secret you are talking about?
Knowledge itself is only one ingredient. Without the availability of the required materials, nothing would change.
It's not good knowing how to make wootz if you don't have the proper ore for making wootz.

Btw, better swords would not have made much of an impact in Japan.
Firstly, swords were never the number one battlefield weapon. Bows and spears were. Swords were used, but not as mass fighting weapons. On a battlefield, keeping distance was important. Not surprisingly, when someone with a sword fights someone with a spear or halberd, the one with the sword usually loses.

You should also not underestimate the Japanese in their adherence to tradition. Things are done the way they are done because if it was good enough for your great grandfather, it is good enough for you. A guy who lives in Japan once explained it like this: In the west, we understand that good people sometimes do bad things (for example taking a company pen back home, or keeping the change if someone overchanged you). In Japan, it is normal for intelligent people to do stupid things (like carry sand in bags and buckets instead of using a wheelbarrow).

Anyway since I cannot see the video: what was the secret?

Good points about distance....

The secret was a mud sealed clay/ ceramic crucible about the size of a coffee can.
It was filled with iron + carbon + glass (flux) sealed and fired in a charcoal fire
fanned by bellows about one day...

The result was a small billet of steel that was then hammered into shape.

The story was that for 200+ years these small billets were traded and moved
from the mid east to viking land. The result was a sword that could make a
lethal dent in chain mail. They were very rare and would have been the tool of royalty
and friends. When royalty has "magical" tools they can command as well
as protect themselves in close quarters.

My comment about Japan was a consideration that nearly all the reduced iron
from their smelting techniques could be converted to slag free steel a lot easier
than traditional methods.

The video shows a difference where hammering clean steel results in almost
no sparks while slag rich material put on a grand light show.

And yes steel arrow points would be more effective than lesser points.

The NOVA video is interesting in that it shows a number of bits.

The one that caught my eye was crucible steel, made almost easy.

Another is that commerce in Europe has reach from Viking land to
the middle east.

Another was that this "secret" lasted +200 years and was lost
quite quickly and completely.

Too bad the Nova video seems to be unavailable.

EDIT; +ULFBERH+T was cut into the sword and filled with a different steel and
would have been visible on a polished surface...

Also: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...-vikings-sword
tells the same story..

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

My comment about Japan was a consideration that nearly all the reduced iron
from their smelting techniques could be converted to slag free steel a lot easier
than traditional methods.

Ah

As I said, convenience has never counted for much (if anything) in Japan.

The guy I mentioned earlier practices kyudo (Japanese archery). Every year, they have some kind of archery event for which they literally have to move a mountain of sand from one place to another. Presumably to act as a shield against stray arrows or something like that. Now, you could say it would be much more efficient just to put up wooden hardboard. You'd be done in an hour. But sand is what they've always used, so sand it is.

However, the guy noticed that there was a concrete path from A to B, and their neighbor had a wheelbarrow they could use. Fortunately for him, the guy was experienced enough not to bring this up in public. Instead he mentioned it to a close dojo friend who immediately shushed him. Proposing to use the wheelbarrow would make them appear to not have the fortitude to endure hardship. It would be a cop-out. A sign of weakness. The only way to move the sand would be to carry it in buckets and sacks, and show your fortitude.

Things are done the way they are done for a reason, and worthiness is shown by trying hard and enduring. Taking the easy way out is just not done. So to get back to the topic: while everyone here would agree that crucible smelting would be a quicker way to refine tamahagane than repeated hammering and folding, that would not really be an important argument. Masamune worked like that. If it was good enough for him, it will be good enough for you.

There are plenty of similar examples. The guy also explained that when going to the dentist, everyone understands that having your teeth drilled is painful. So if you don't have enough anesthetic to completely take the pain out of the drilling, you don't ask for more anesthetic. That would be a cop-out. You have to endure.

Or take archery itself. A lopsided Japanese bow takes a lot of practice to shoot even moderately well. The asymmetrical design is difficult to control. All other people would sit down for a moment and figure out a way to make a better, more efficient, eaiser to control bow. The Japanese solution is just to try harder and practice more. Or as my sensei (a Japanologist) explained: 'A bow should be like this. Quit whining and try harder' I don't practice Japanese archery btw, it was just a conversation about the reasons for sticking to a rather inefficient bow shape.

It was great to see Ric and Kevin on Nova! The producers took some "liberties" with the process and history. But it was great nonetheless.

At the very least, it was good exposure for what some of us wackos do for a living.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

...My comment about Japan was a consideration that nearly all the reduced iron from their smelting techniques could be converted to slag free steel a lot easier than traditional methods.

I would clarify that the Japanese tamahagane process makes steel not reduced iron. It is probably the only traditional method of making steel on a large scale left in the world. I know how I do it at home, there are other centers, like Tim, dabbling in the processes but not varying much from the traditional ways.

One of the things I discovered is that one can modify almost any aspect of the process to include modern tools to "make the process more efficient or cheaper." I quit doing all that stuff because the traditional process is the most efficient. Sometimes all that work seems like a waste until you realize that this process was refined over a thousand years. They got rid of all the time waste long before I tried to figure out how to make it better. LOL

These shows universally make it seem like what we do is easy. They do not do a very good job of showing the time taken, the dirty drudgery of repetitive heavy work or the really boring waiting that goes on. They also do not show the failed attempts. I have no doubt Ric "knew" this was going to work, but there are so many places in the process for failures to begin that the whole thing was at risk. Think about putting three days into a fire and then blowing it during the grinding, or finding one of those carefully setup letter welds has a big flaw in it. All the work gone.

I'm with Bruno about this. The effort leaves something of yourself in the work.

I believe this is the video. Interesting.
Secrets of the Viking Sword (2012) full - YouTube