Thread: Too much of a good thing: choosing the right steel

I haven't tried a razor from it yet, but so far am really liking 80CRV2. It's been called 1084+ and 52100 light, but it's very tough and holds a good edge.

Oh, ok. Thanks for the heads-up on that 80 steel. I'll go check it out now on NJ Steel Baron.

Originally Posted by WILDMAN1

Hey, I'm glad I found this post. N.J. Steel Baron suggested the 52100 to make a razor with, but I see that, for most of you smiths, it is a pain to work. What is probably the best, all-round, easiest to make a razor with, that really holds a fine, hard edge. I want to have or to make myself, a near wedge/real wedge razor. I want it to be about 1 3/8" wide and 3" long and a bit over 1/4" thick at the spine, like maybe 5/16" or 11/32.

That would be O2. But you can forget about that in the US. O1 however is a good steel to begin with because it is good allround, as is 1086 or 1084.

Originally Posted by Bruno

That would be O2. But you can forget about that in the US. O1 however is a good steel to begin with because it is good allround, as is 1086 or 1084.

Bruno, some folks have been chatting with a guy who works for one of the German companies about O2. He used to work for BU/Voestalpine and was the point guy for getting the thicker AEB-L stock to the knife supply companies. Hopefully, we can score some of that for damascus because as you probably know, it etches super dark because of all of that manganese. One smith over here recently got some O2 and did a three steel damascus blade of O1, O2 and L6.

Folks who have worked with it a lot will tell you that 52100 is a bit more sensitive to austenizing temps than other steels we like to use. Above 1500F, you get bearing steel with big chromium carbides and pretty high abrasion resistance for a "simple" steel. At 1475F below the 'saturation point" you get very fine grain and fewer/smaller chromium carbides, but very high as quenched hardness and high fine edge stability like the kitchen knife guys love.

Bruno, Love your work BTW...

O1 is a fantastic steel for razors if the Ht is done corectly.

I know ppl pay more for exotic steels but not all steels are made to sustain a razors edge.

I had the pleasure a while back to play wit a Stainless CPM S35VN blade.

It shaved realy nice...it belonged to a friend that just got it.
I used it for a while and when i wanted to hone it on my usual stone progression it was a nightmare....
I had to get in contact with the maker to ask how to hone it and indeed some CBN and Diamond sprays and stropping later i saw the light.

I came to this hobby from the Knife forums and although i am not a maker i have read much about steel and it's properties.
Stainless is an option. The AEBL steel is the same steel taht Friodur ws made of and most of the stainless razors back in the day.
The problem with taht steel is carbides and grain reduction.
Most brands used a double temper cicle and a criogenic cicle in between to refine the grain of the steel so it could be sharpend easier and take a finer edge.
Friodur wa the name that J.A.Henckels gave to the process.
Ice tempered frozen steel was Dovo's name for it
Frozen temper was Hess brand's name for it...
Frozen Steel Was Puma's
and the list goes on...the fact that almost every Stainless manufacturer had a name for the double temper and crio cicle used for heat treating their blades has me thinking that the crio cicle is realy important and you should think about that if you plan to make stainless baldes.

Also take in consideration that a true cryo quench must take the steel beneath a certain temperature point...same as propper heat treatment...this poin must be reached or else no transformation occurs.
−180 °C (−301 °F) is recomended...
This is an interesting article about cryogenic tretment.
http://www.airproducts.co.jp/~/media...3005019GLB.pdf

From my limited experience as a knife and razor collector i come to understand that a a steel can be heat treated 2 ways...
1) perfect
2) any other way
And this reflects in the overall performance of the steel. If you get the geometry of the blade just right and you nail the heat treatment the razor is going to be a work of art.

A HRC testing unit for your blades and looking into various heat treating grafics could get you more out or the O1 you are used to work with,
Also if you plan on doing crio you can do crio to the O1 as well as for the AEBL...

This is a realy nice and easy read when you have some spare time.
It's right up your ball park -

"Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others
who Heat Treat and Forge Steel
John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Iowa State University
March 2005 "

http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

I have come to love simple high carbon steel razors because they take a finer edge with ease.

Think of Iwasaki and how much he managed to get out of sweedish steel and tamahagane using optimal heat treatment and HRC testing

And if you real must use exotic steel...pick it wisely.

A simple stainless steel like AEB-L really only "requires" dry ice temperatures for the "cold" treatment. When you get into the more complex alloys like an Elmax, you need to be about 20 or so degrees colder minimum than say dry ice and acetone can get so you need LN for that. For purposes of finishing up martensite formation with AEB-L, you only have to get it to the target temp and stabilize. Now if you want to do the eta carbide voodoo, that takes longer and requires true "cryo" temps.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

Bruno, Love your work BTW...

O1 is a fantastic steel for razors if the Ht is done corectly.

I know ppl pay more for exotic steels but not all steels are made to sustain a razors edge.

I had the pleasure a while back to play wit a Stainless CPM S35VN blade.

It shaved realy nice...it belonged to a friend that just got it.
I used it for a while and when i wanted to hone it on my usual stone progression it was a nightmare....
I had to get in contact with the maker to ask how to hone it and indeed some CBN and Diamond sprays and stropping later i saw the light.

I came to this hobby from the Knife forums and although i am not a maker i have read much about steel and it's properties.
Stainless is an option. The AEBL steel is the same steel taht Friodur ws made of and most of the stainless razors back in the day.
The problem with taht steel is carbides and grain reduction.
Most brands used a double temper cicle and a criogenic cicle in between to refine the grain of the steel so it could be sharpend easier and take a finer edge.
Friodur wa the name that J.A.Henckels gave to the process.
Ice tempered frozen steel was Dovo's name for it
Frozen temper was Hess brand's name for it...
Frozen Steel Was Puma's
and the list goes on...the fact that almost every Stainless manufacturer had a name for the double temper and crio cicle used for heat treating their blades has me thinking that the crio cicle is realy important and you should think about that if you plan to make stainless baldes.

Also take in consideration that a true cryo quench must take the steel beneath a certain temperature point...same as propper heat treatment...this poin must be reached or else no transformation occurs.
−180 °C (−301 °F) is recomended...
This is an interesting article about cryogenic tretment.
http://www.airproducts.co.jp/~/media...3005019GLB.pdf

From my limited experience as a knife and razor collector i come to understand that a a steel can be heat treated 2 ways...
1) perfect
2) any other way
And this reflects in the overall performance of the steel. If you get the geometry of the blade just right and you nail the heat treatment the razor is going to be a work of art.

A HRC testing unit for your blades and looking into various heat treating grafics could get you more out or the O1 you are used to work with,
Also if you plan on doing crio you can do crio to the O1 as well as for the AEBL...

This is a realy nice and easy read when you have some spare time.
It's right up your ball park -

"Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others
who Heat Treat and Forge Steel
John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Iowa State University
March 2005 "

http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

I have come to love simple high carbon steel razors because they take a finer edge with ease.

Think of Iwasaki and how much he managed to get out of sweedish steel and tamahagane using optimal heat treatment and HRC testing

And if you real must use exotic steel...pick it wisely.