Thread: The Real Learning Curve?

I've been at this with a Lynn honed razor for 6 months now and have touched the edge up once or twice on the norton so basically is still under the thrall of Lynn.

Now I have switched to Wapienicas which I am having to hone from scratch myself I think I am hitting the real learning curve.

I am getting the blade up to a point where arm or leg hair jumps and pops from the blade but my face is suffering.

I can't really tell what's going on with the TPT because I really don't understand it. They pass the boar hair HHT and the shave starts well but ends up causing razor burn and aren't as close (but still beat a Mach III)

My questions.

Can a honemeister edge make up for technique deficiencies?

Do I need to alter my technique for a Wappy?

Do I need to pay more attention?

Do I need to add another stone after the 4/8?

Have I truly started my apprenticeship after 6 months of just getting the hang of the thing?

Guys, your thoughts please?

Simon

Could it be overhoned?

I find the same shaving technique works (for me) with a Wapienica, a Livi, and an ebay, which are my three decently sharp blades. If I attempt to shave with an unsharp blade, then my technique goes all over the place as I try to compensate for a dull edge, which results in pain.

I find that I need a few strokes on a coticule to get a comfortable shave after the Norton. If I leave these strokes out, it catches and pulls. That could just be me, of course. None of my blades will pass the HHT, nor shave my arm hairs! They'll shave dry skin off my arm if I let them get that close, though. (Off to find some hairs after this post...).

One thing I have noticed is that my technique improved a lot after I first got a decently sharp razor, and is continuing to improve. It wouldn't be fun in the same way if it was easy, right?

I haven't used a norton so I can't offer any advice related to that, but I can tell you that I recently discovered the biggest difference in sharpening came when I used a Yellow Belgian dry. How this relates to your position I don't know, but you might want to add something after the 8k just to really tighten up the edge.

Si

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

I am getting the blade up to a point where arm or leg hair jumps and pops from the blade but my face is suffering.

I assume this is after stropping and if that's the case it doesn't mean too much when we're talking about a great shave vs. any kind of shave ... in my experience.

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

I can't really tell what's going on with the TPT because I really don't understand it.

Don't let that stop you from continuing to gather data this way. Eventually it should come in to focus for you.

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

Can a honemeister edge make up for technique deficiencies?

Probably at this point, but the goal here is to learn to achieve that for yourself.

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

Do I need to alter my technique for a Wappy?

Probably at this point, because the goal here is to learn to achieve that for yourself. Each razor may want a different approach anyway. Try using a little more pressure on the 4k side than you do on the 8k and ease way off on both sides at the end of the pyramid.

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

Do I need to pay more attention?

Always, never stop. How else will you know what is happening with the edge?

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

Do I need to add another stone after the 4/8?

No. Finer grits can help refine the edge, but the Norton combo is what you need to build it. This is how I view the creation of the edge.
The 4k creates a groove structure which is necessary for the shave, perhaps indicated as follows:
^ ^ ^ ^ ^

The 8k refines it enough to get a good shave.
A A A A A

Together they create an interwoven mix of strength and delicacy.
^A^A^A^A^

Further grits used in moderation can refine that even further.
^'A'^'A'^'A'^

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

Have I truly started my apprenticeship after 6 months of just getting the hang of the thing?

Each must walk his path alone. Some will find more obstacles and easier stretches at different places than others because each journey leads to the same place. The journey is different for each because we are coming from different places.

X

Wow X that's..beautiful, reads like poetry.

And he's correct to boot. When your starting out I would concentrate on the 4K 8K. You should be able to get the razor plenty sharp to give you a great shave. I wouldn't complicate things with other hones. Once you have mastered the basic then you can move on to the next hone. Don't look to the coticule as a crutch to make up for a poor result on the other hone. Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by Bradford Si

Can a honemeister edge make up for technique deficiencies?

Do I need to pay more attention?

Do I need to add another stone after the 4/8?

Simon

1) Someone who is skilled at honing can establish a good edge for you....but:

As I mentioned in another thread some time ago, the final step before shaving is stropping. Poor stropping technique can have either of the following negative effects even on an expertly honed edge:

a) best case you will not fully develop a keen edge (multiple variables not applied to your otherwise adequate technique). You may think your razor is damn sharp...but is it?? Even when an expert hones and strops your blade, is the edge still as keen after a couple of days transit in the mail???

b) worse, you may roll, bend, or otherwise dull/damage the honed edge (poor technique)

Either case, you must practice to become proficient at stropping.

So while you are at it, you may as well learn to hone. Of course there is no shame in having someone else hone for you. Many a barber and many private users in the past did the same. It's up to you, but why not go for it and learn all you can? In the end you will be better off I think.

2) Always pay more attention. You will learn a lot, and...handling a straight razor demands it

3) I've never used a Norton stone, but many here swear by them. I trully believe that one stone, especially a combo like the 4/8, is all that you really need. More stones does not an expert make...or something like that.

Certainly once you become more and more proficient at honing you may find a use for different grits, fast or slow, but for now you can get good results with the stone you have. It's not just learning the correct technique for honing, but also to know when to stop honing, or to know when to keep going.

Hope this adds some food for thought and encouragement.

Scott

Si,

I'll be in the minority here on some of this, but I thought I'd add my two cents...

I think you should consider a coticule. I don't agree that a coticule is a "crutch." In my experience it's just an easier stone to use than the Norton. (I'd consider a pasted strop a "crutch" in that it's not truly honing, and repeated use causes the edge to slowly degrade. You have to go back to the hone eventually.)

The Norton cuts quickly, which is both a strength and a weakness in my opinion. It gets you near shave-sharp quickly, but then it requires extra care and a lot of practice to get maximum benefit from the stone.

A coticule cuts more slowly, and so it can gently take your near-sharp edge to shave-sharp with less risk of overhoning.

I'm able to get great edges on the Norton, but I find that the coticule produces better edges, and more reliably. With the Norton, I'm always wondering whether a seemingly sharp edge is shave-ready or just overhoned, and I don't find out until I shave-test. With the coticule, the edge usually needs some fine-tuning, but it's never painfully out of whack.

Once you have a razor honed up, you can keep it humming along forever with just a coticule. My pasted strop has languished since I got mine. Oh, and my Wapis LOVE the coticule. Something about that steel just works with this particular hone.

Just some thoughts--take 'em for what they're worth.

Josh

Josh, I have the norton combination stone now (4k/8k) as well as a hanging strop. Will my pasted tm paddle be good enough to finish an edge with off a norton until I buy a couticle stone? Also, I know you may be the guy to ask for honing adivice on the forums here.. I have a 5/8 wapieinca. It has some chipping and I did something to the blade when removing it on 1000 grit sandpaper. I really think I pushed my luck when I lifted the spine off of the paper to get the chip removed. I did not have glass to use as a surface and was trying to use a countertop. If you hold the razor straight to your face so you are looking at the tip and can see both sides of the blade, it looks as though one side has a steeper or crooked tapering of the blade. The very tip of the blade, or the part that looks like a v from the spine to the toe looks dull or uneven on one side. What kind of problem is this? I know it isn't the grind it has to be something I produced myself. What would be a good fix. I was going to just start with some aggressive pyramids but I have already done quite a bit on the stone and am looking for a few tips.

Originally Posted by matt

I really think I pushed my luck when I lifted the spine off of the paper to get the chip removed.

Don't EVER do that again if you value your time.
I did the same thing on a pasted strop, back when I didn't know anything about razors. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

The ONLY thing you can do about it is X ing until the edge is an edge egain and not a butterknife.
You can speed up this process by putting pressure on the blade, but be carefull not to distort the shape of the blade. A wedge will not bend or flex, but a full hollow will.